What level on VU meter to aim for on Master Bus?

[alligatorlizard]

Hi,

I'm gain staging so as to keep each channel around 0db on VU meter (bass intensive material) or around -9db peaks (PPM) on more transient material. Standard VU meter set to -18db.

What level should I aim for on the master bus? (i.e. when the mix is finished) Should I also be aiming for an eventual level of around 0db on VU meter here? Or can it be higher so long as peaks don't clip 0db (PPM)?

Put it another way, once I've gain staged each channel and am starting to set basic fader levels for the mix, say I'm starting with the kick, should I just leave the kick fader at 0 and mix around this, or should I set it a bit lower so that once all the other instruments are in the master bus VU reads around 0?

Thanks!

[Googly Smythe]

The trend these days is to use a loudness meter on the master. I don't think VU meters are as informative.
That said, ignore the VU reading and keep the peaks below 0dB, or -0.5 -1 dB if you are rendering to mp3 and the like. Use an inter-sample meter, if you can.

[alligatorlizard]

Thanks, but I'm interested in VU levels right now - the reason being, I'm using a lot of analog emulation plugins like Slate Digital's "Virtual Console Collection" - this is the main reason I've started gain staging my tracks, as the sweet spot going into these is around 0db on a VU meter set to -18 PPM.

As I'm also using some of these plugins on the master bus, I'm wondering whether a level around 0db VU (set to -18 PPM) is traditionally what audio engineers aim to see on the master bus?

Really, the dilemma here is, once all tracks are individually gainstaged, how do I choose the fader level for the first part? e.g. from all faders at 0, I'll usually pull the kick up, then get the bass bouncing along with that, then balance the other parts with this foundation. But where to set the fader for that initial kick channel??

To break it down to 2 specific questions:

1) Is around 0db on VU meter (set to -18 PPM) a sensible level to be looking for on master bus when all elements of mix are present? i.e. is that the best level for any analog emulations on the master bus?

2) If so, where's a good starting point to set the kick fader, in order to end up with the full mix at around this level?

I really can't find clear answers to this in any of the gain staging guides out there, but it seems like an obvious question?

[Etienne1973]

... I'm using a lot of analog emulation plugins like Slate Digital's "Virtual Console Collection" ...

Do you have VCC as your first plugin in individual channels and master bus?

If yes, then ...

1) Is around 0db on VU meter (set to -18 PPM) a sensible level to be looking for on master bus when all elements of mix are present? i.e. is that the best level for any analog emulations on the master bus?

If I have transient strong tracks (drums/percussion) gain staged at -10 dBFS peak and more pad sustain like tracks at 0 dB VU then I get good peak headroom on the master bus.

My first plugin on the master bus is VCC Mixbuss. Like in VCC channel module (VMR) I can set the input gain (setting inside the plugin) before console emulation starts kicking in.

On VCC Mixbuss module I link input and output and set it normally to VU peak 0 on the meter. If I want to get an overdriven SSL console master bus sound then I set it higher.

2) If so, where's a good starting point to set the kick fader, in order to end up with the full mix at around this level?

If I have all individual tracks gain staged as above mentioned then I start kick fader at position 0. It works good for me with projects with approx. 60 tracks. 60 tracks after I group/bus some individual tracks like backing vocals, double tracked guitars etc..

[alligatorlizard]

... I'm using a lot of analog emulation plugins like Slate Digital's "Virtual Console Collection" ...

Do you have VCC as your first plugin in individual channels and master bus?

If yes, then ...

1) Is around 0db on VU meter (set to -18 PPM) a sensible level to be looking for on master bus when all elements of mix are present? i.e. is that the best level for any analog emulations on the master bus?

If I have transient strong tracks (drums/percussion) gain staged at -10 dBFS peak and more pad sustain like tracks at 0 dB VU then I get good peak headroom on the master bus.

My first plugin on the master bus is VCC Mixbuss. Like in VCC channel module (VMR) I can set the input gain (setting inside the plugin) before console emulation starts kicking in.

On VCC Mixbuss module I link input and output and set it normally to VU peak 0 on the meter. If I want to get an overdriven SSL console master bus sound then I set it higher.

2) If so, where's a good starting point to set the kick fader, in order to end up with the full mix at around this level?

If I have all individual tracks gain staged as above mentioned then I start kick fader at position 0. It works good for me with projects with approx. 60 tracks. 60 tracks after I group/bus some individual tracks like backing vocals, double tracked guitars etc..

Interesting - I had got the impression from some other threads also that one of the points of gainstaging was to be able to keep all channels at around unity gain - however I find if I start with kick at 0, once the other elements are in I'm actually clipping the master bus. Looking at recent projects, I seem to have settled for around -6 to -9 db on kick, and built around that, and this ends up with a few db of headroom, and hitting the VU meter on VCC between 0 and +3db.

btw, yes, VCC first plugin (tho don't always use it on individual channels) and yes I will adjust the in/out trims till get the sound I want - so I know I can always compensate with this, or worst case scenario just pull all faders down/up by same amount once mix takes shape, but just wondered if there were any tricks I was missing.

And now you say you leave the kick at unity gain, I am wondering why I'm having to drag things down so much more than you are (and I rarely have as much as 60 tracks going on either!)

You must be hitting the master bus (with the full mix) way more than 0db VU? Just adding the bass to the kick ususally boosts by around 3db on a VU meter - once you've added everythings else the needle must be off the scale (i.e. past +3) - so are you saying this is no issue, so long as it doesn't actually clip? (i.e. go above 0 dbfs)

[Etienne1973]

You must be hitting the master bus (with the full mix) way more than 0db VU?

It's a compromise.

I think it's good to have faders around 0 (zero) because resolution for fine adjustments is higher.

So I decide to ignore VU metering at DAW master bus. Just looking for peak headroom.

[alligatorlizard]

Thanks for replies, all useful info, sounds like I'm basically doing the right thing and don't need to worry about the VU level of final mix unless a plugin requires it (and then there's trims) - back to mixing now!

[Spin Boyz]

Try this: https://youtu.be/ECRx4WF3pcc

[Butwug]

Some vst’s specifically tell you to aim for -18db on VU but those usually only see use on tracks (Klanghelm.) This is what I do but mot sure if correct tbh. I get my instruments to be at around -18db on VU meter. From there I adjust the faders into the master to be loud enough to get the loudness I need on the entire track or slightly lower. Then I use mastering plugins to output a louder signal. Keeping everything at -18db is pretty low for master. Just last night I had a track that was around -16Lufs, with lots of headroom on peaks. Used my tape saturator output to increase the signal a bit, then that fed into a clipper, increased the signal output of that a bit into compressor, and that was around 13Lufs with peaks around -1db.

[Googly Smythe]

Still can't figure out if this discussion is about inputs, outputs or reference levels.
The sweet spot on a VU meter is 0dB. That -18dB business is all about setting a reference input level.

[Spin Boyz]

That’s how I usually setup my tracks before a mix. Each one hitting at 0db VU (-18dbfs) aka the sweet spot. I then solo the kick and have it hitting between -7 and -5 VU. Then mix everything around the kick. Yeah I like my levels low. The beauty of mixing is you can do whatever sounds good to you.

[Googly Smythe]

...
The beauty of mixing is you can do whatever sounds good to you.

This.
Clean as you like, dirty as you like, just don't overload your DA converters on the way out from your steroe stereo out to your speakers.

[MogwaiBoy]

So you are setting level according to the VU at the input of the channel (directly from the instrument insert), then using the channel's fader to set the actual volume? Sounds like how I'm using Satson. You don't need/want every instrument hitting 0VU on the master...

[Spin Boyz]

That's how I do it, but using the Hornet VU meter.

[do_androids_dream]

Metering is all about using reference points that mean something TO YOU. That's the important thing - so that you can make judgements/decisions that are meaningful. You could use the tried and tested 0 dB VU (-18 dB) reference point to leave plenty of room to allow for peaks or you could use some other reference point. I now use a -14 dB average signal reference point for mixing - works for me.