Good DAW for teaching on Linux / under Wine?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
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arkmabat
KVRAF
4096 posts since 6 Nov, 2009

Post Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:56 am

Not a DAW but Wavosaur announced linux support under wine with many working vsts.

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4damind
KVRAF
5502 posts since 17 Aug, 2004 from Berlin, Germany

Post Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:49 am

With my experience (long time Linux user since the 90s), Reaper with Wineasio worked the best. It depends of the Wine development state but if I tried it the last time (some years back) most of the VSTs (which don't need a dongle or are DSP based) are working. I produced also a song with Reaper on Linux.

Maybe sometimes in the future Bitwig which has native Linux support but I don't know if they support (Windows)VST plug-ins, so this could be the showstopper if they only support LADSPA or similar native Linux plug-ins.

jeffh
KVRian
508 posts since 9 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:58 am

4damind wrote:With my experience (long time Linux user since the 90s), Reaper with Wineasio worked the best. It depends of the Wine development state but if I tried it the last time (some years back) most of the VSTs (which don't need a dongle or are DSP based) are working. I produced also a song with Reaper on Linux.
I think the general consensus is that Reaper doesn't work so well under WINE for the vast majority of people (myself included).

The evidence:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=117332
4damind wrote:Maybe sometimes in the future Bitwig which has native Linux support but I don't know if they support (Windows)VST plug-ins, so this could be the showstopper if they only support LADSPA or similar native Linux plug-ins.
I think that Bitwig could be a good option if it actually works, which has yet to be determined, but it's probably going to cost more than the OP is looking to spend. Tracktion seemed like a very decent and stable native Linux DAW when I tried it, but I did not find it very intuitive at all.

The list of native Linux VST has grown considerably in recent years... AFAIK none of them are superstar plugins like Kontakt or Massive, but some are decent. The only problem is that it seems that most of them crash in most Linux VST hosts, and maybe only work well in one or two (or zero).

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dformd
KVRian
517 posts since 20 Dec, 2008

Post Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:32 am

jeffh wrote:
4damind wrote: The list of native Linux VST has grown considerably in recent years... AFAIK none of them are superstar plugins like Kontakt or Massive, but some are decent. The only problem is that it seems that most of them crash in most Linux VST hosts, and maybe only work well in one or two (or zero).
Hey jeffh; out of curiosity, because I haven't tried the Linux versions of Loomer's plugins yet, do you know how well they run in Renoise on Ubuntu Linux? I know from years of past, first-hand experience that Renoise is solid (or was) in Ubuntu, and I'm currently putting together a Linux-based audio workstation for my girlfriend and I to collaborate with. I love the one, fairly simple Loomer plugin I have for my Mac (Manifold), and have been eyeing Loomer's Aspect synth as the potential workhorse for our Linux setup, but haven't tried it yet as I need a few parts (memory and a hard drive!) for the computer to run lol .

jeffh
KVRian
508 posts since 9 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:11 am

dformd wrote:out of curiosity, because I haven't tried the Linux versions of Loomer's plugins yet, do you know how well they run in Renoise on Ubuntu Linux?
I don't really know, sorry... I've only done minor amounts of demo-ing of Loomer plugins or Renoise, and never together... Both were nice, neither were quite my cup of tea though...

af20001
KVRer
29 posts since 4 Jul, 2004 from UK

Post Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:28 am

The Loomer plugins work fine in Renoise on Linux (the 2 that I use anyway). The only native Linux VSTs that have caused problems were the old Jucetice plugins, but they have been updated by a different maintainer and work fine now.

So not sure where the impression that most Linux native VSTs crash comes from! They always work fine for me in Qtractor & Renoise.

pc999
KVRian
1431 posts since 19 Aug, 2009

Post Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:50 am

af20001 wrote:The Loomer plugins work fine in Renoise on Linux (the 2 that I use anyway). The only native Linux VSTs that have caused problems were the old Jucetice plugins, but they have been updated by a different maintainer and work fine now.

So not sure where the impression that most Linux native VSTs crash comes from! They always work fine for me in Qtractor & Renoise.
They also work fine on Tracktion.


Probably the best option is T4, and nice and stable DAW that runs very well and is easy to get in any platform, also its workflow would transit very well to others DAWs.

Or just wait for Bitwig and see how it works, you wouldn't even need VSTs because it seems to bring almost everything you could ever need.



PyDaw is quite good too now that is in multiple OS, but beware of its particular workflow...

jeffh
KVRian
508 posts since 9 Feb, 2012

Post Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:43 am

af20001 wrote: So not sure where the impression that most Linux native VSTs crash comes from!
In a word: Ardour3. "The Flagship Professional-Grade Linux DAW"(copyright 2005-2013 Paul Davis)

Some quick Google-fu did seem to back up that Linux VST crashes were mostly related to Ardour3 and not Renoise or Qtractor. I may have mixed up a list of working/not-working plugins I saw(less than half working properly), but it turns out that was Win32/VST plugins run with WINE. But, OTOH, it turns out that the list of native Linux VSTs also wasn't as big as I thought, as I was thinking some of the Win32 ones were actually native :D

I would say in general though that most Linux audio apps are indeed "flaky", as the OP said... and about 99.9% of KVR forumites would probably agree with that statement.
af20001 wrote:They always work fine for me in Qtractor & Renoise.
Fair enough. Renoise is a solid app in my (brief) experience with it.

af20001
KVRer
29 posts since 4 Jul, 2004 from UK

Post Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:59 am

jeffh wrote:
af20001 wrote: So not sure where the impression that most Linux native VSTs crash comes from!
In a word: Ardour3. "The Flagship Professional-Grade Linux DAW"(copyright 2005-2013 Paul Davis)

Some quick Google-fu did seem to back up that Linux VST crashes were mostly related to Ardour3 and not Renoise or Qtractor. I may have mixed up a list of working/not-working plugins I saw(less than half working properly), but it turns out that was Win32/VST plugins run with WINE. But, OTOH, it turns out that the list of native Linux VSTs also wasn't as big as I thought, as I was thinking some of the Win32 ones were actually native :D

I would say in general though that most Linux audio apps are indeed "flaky", as the OP said... and about 99.9% of KVR forumites would probably agree with that statement.
I don't see how they could as nowhere near 99.9% of KVR users would have used any Linux audio apps!


It's pointless complaining about Windows plugins crashing on Linux with WINE, the fact is they are not designed to run on Linux, regardless of what fancy emulation layers are employed to try and get them to run. I would consider it a bonus if any run properly.

I know you have got your own software to promote, but maybe it would be best to just quote from your own experiences rather than state as facts the results of some random Google searches - I'm sure you'd get cheesed off if someone went around slagging off your software on the grounds that they once read that someone said it crashed!

UltraJv
KVRAF
6306 posts since 30 Dec, 2004 from London uk

Post Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:21 am

Shoot the techie, then use your 400 budget to buy Windows for each PC and then get a free DAW. It will be easier and youll be teaching on a platform thats widely in use.

jeffh
KVRian
508 posts since 9 Feb, 2012

Post Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:43 am

af20001 wrote: I don't see how they could as nowhere near 99.9% of KVR users would have used any Linux audio apps!


It's pointless complaining about Windows plugins crashing on Linux with WINE, the fact is they are not designed to run on Linux, regardless of what fancy emulation layers are employed to try and get them to run. I would consider it a bonus if any run properly.

I know you have got your own software to promote, but maybe it would be best to just quote from your own experiences rather than state as facts the results of some random Google searches - I'm sure you'd get cheesed off if someone went around slagging off your software on the grounds that they once read that someone said it crashed!
ROFL... Let me re-phrase to "99.9% of those who tried". Plenty of people on KVR tried switching to Linux for audio, and almost all of them went back to Windows(as chronicled in numerous forum threads). It's neither "stable" nor "just as good as Windows". When you start adding proprietary software like Renoise and the Loomer plugins it gets a bit better, but using closed software on an open OS kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

Your assertion that I don't have experience with it is laughable; I was one of the people who tried to switch to Linux audio, disliked it for the same reasons everybody else does, but actually had the know-how to do something about it, or "scratching my own itch" as the saying goes.. but in all fairness, I've barely touched anybody else's Linux audio software in about a year now since I've been writing my own, forgive me if I don't remember every detail. What I remember clearly is that it was a huge step down in stability, sound, and features from Reaper + NI Komplete on Windows that I was using, and I don't think any sane person would try to debate that.

af20001
KVRer
29 posts since 4 Jul, 2004 from UK

Post Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:47 am

jeffh wrote:

Your assertion that I don't have experience with it is laughable; I was one of the people who tried to switch to Linux audio, disliked it for the same reasons everybody else does, but actually had the know-how to do something about it, or "scratching my own itch" as the saying goes..
I'm not trying to assert that you have no experience, just simply saying that is what you should quote from.
jeffh wrote: What I remember clearly is that it was a huge step down in stability, sound, and features from Reaper + NI Komplete on Windows that I was using
that is a more tangible statement than simply quoting something you saw on Google!

Anyway, good luck with your itch scratching!

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pljones
KVRAF
6846 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Post Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:22 pm

I joined KVR in 2003 as a Linux user. I stuck it out to 2005 and then switched to Windows completely. I'd previously been a *nix user exclusively at home since 1990, so it wasn't something I did lightly. I carried on following Linux audio for several years (I sort of still do vaguely) but nothing really changes - same old crew shouting at each other that the user does not know the "one true way" to use Linux audio (there are about five (?) different audio systems to start with) or should not expect bugs to be fixed (that's in the audio systems - not just the application layer) or the user is the one with the problem, etc, never the developer. It's just too exhausting and thankless, really - even when you try to help. I've had a far more rewarding (literally) experience as a helpful Windows user and find the platform far more flexible and stable. (You can even run JACK on it if you need that ultimate flexibility.)

fedexnman
KVRAF
2907 posts since 4 Jan, 2005

Post Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:44 pm

Im just wondering when the FFADO guys are gonna fix FFADO to work with ALSA , with FFADO you are forced to use JACK or QJACKCTRL , and as of right now the only host I've been able to successfully use are ReNoise , MixBuss , and Ardour . Tracktion4 does not seem to see JACK still ? FFADO is the firewire driver for Linux by the way ... Id love to try PYDAW too but no luck with FFADO ......

jeffh
KVRian
508 posts since 9 Feb, 2012

Post Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:34 pm

fedexnman wrote:Im just wondering when the FFADO guys are gonna fix FFADO to work with ALSA , with FFADO you are forced to use JACK or QJACKCTRL , and as of right now the only host I've been able to successfully use are ReNoise , MixBuss , and Ardour . Tracktion4 does not seem to see JACK still ? FFADO is the firewire driver for Linux by the way ... Id love to try PYDAW too but no luck with FFADO ......
PyDAW doesn't support Jack (and by extension, FFADO). I would like to support Firewire devices, but for the sake of reliability and user experience do not want to support Jack.

I think the ALSA/Firewire driver project is dead(or else they've taken development underground + Bitwig amounts of late)... I sent the exact same question to the FFADO-devel mailing list a while back (maybe a year ago?) and didn't even get a response.

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