Ableton vs Bitwig - pros/cons?

[pdxindy]

And while you're right about effects (it still boggles my mind when I load some factory presets), then I meant this more about the raw effects, comparing them 1:1. In Live you can also chain stuff together, put them in rack, split the sounds, etc. so I guess in the end possibilities are pretty much very similar.

You cannot nest devices in Live. They only function as separate independent FX.

In Bitwig Delay, you can nest any device or chain of devices inside the feedback path of the Delay. In Delay-4, each of the 4 delay lines can have its own chain of other devices (including VST's) inside its feedback path. Not possible in Live (without having to build a complex M4L device requiring a lot of skill)

[pdxindy]

You take an lfo, assign it to cutoff then you add and envelope for resonance then you add a randomizer on the rate of the lfo, then on top of all that you have an xy pad which you can slide between the depths of all the above just in case you still haven't found what you're looking for. Can you honestly say a user doing all of this with all these tools really knows what he wants to sound like?

Yes, I often know exactly what I want it to sound like. I frequently have 1-2 dozen modulations active. I usually use velocity modulation on a number of parameters. Same for the Amp and Filter Envelopes. I will also have the keyscaling adjusting multiple parameters so the patch sounds how I want it to over the pertinent keyboard range.

It might be a simple plucked string sound, but I want it to be expressive according to how I play it and so there are plenty of subtle modulations active.

[THE INTRANCER]

- the GUI isn't skinnable: if you don't like the default colour scheme and overal design of Bitwig's GUI elements, you're out of luck - for now at least they can't be changed,

On Windows, the Bitwig GUI colours can be changed very easily, in fact, any colours of any application can be changed without altering your operating system desktop settings, besides Ableton you're comparing it with.

See here...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=497277

The second solution to reskinning just requires some skill in Photoshop or a similar application, where you have complete control over how you want your daws GUI to look.

Here's an example here created for Studio One 3.5 ...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=500817

[pottering]

M4L is not hard to use, 99% of the stuff I wanted somebody had already built it, and I found it searching maxforlive.com or googling (not every M4L dev posts their stuff in maxforlive.com).

And M4L is easier than Reaktor and similar.

Why?

First, the fake cables to tiny connectors are about the same amount of work, but with Max you just click anywhere and type the name of the object you want to instance, it is a programming language, so the "vst~" text is already the "vst~" object, and it has auto-completion, like most programming IDEs. Faster than searching in a browser then drag'n'dropping.

Second, the help files are muuuch better. You right-click a object and it will actually show two options, the "help" and the "reference" for the object. "Reference" is a text explaining the object, like a normal manual, but "Help" is actually a working patch that shows in practice how it works. So if you open the Help for a video object, it will actually play or load a video, you can even copy/paste stuff from the Help into your own patch.

For example, the M4L test device in the 1st pic in my previous comment in this thread was basically the Help for "vst~", which I just copypasted and plugged into the basic Max MIDI Effect template.



The screenshot above shows the Help for "vst~", that is not a static JPG, it is a working patch, all the buttons can be clicked (plug, open, etc.). You can click "plug", load am audio FX VST, then click the speaker icon to turn on the audio, it will play the Source through that VST.

The tabs in the top (Inline View, Instruments, etc.) are other example patches that show other uses of the object:



Not only M4L has thousands of pre-built devices that work just like VSTs in Live 10 (better in the case of MIDI FX), but Max MSP has several pre-built libraries similar to Reaktor Blocks, like BEAP (euro-style modular) and Vizzie (video synthesis).

http://maxforlive.com/
https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/#?item ... x_for_live
http://little-scale.blogspot.com.br/sea ... for%20live
https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%9 ... h&l=Max&l=
https://cycling74.com/tutorials/a-few-m ... al-series/
https://cycling74.com/tutorials/a-brief ... -to-vizzie
https://www.znibbl.es/
http://www.sharesynth.com/create-a-vide ... e-max-msp/

Tangentially, since many people already know how amazing scripting can be with Reaper's ReaScript and such, Max 8 will have Node.js, and you could already use Javascript and Lua scripting with Max (plus a Python API, and the Max objects that allow using CSound and other stuff):

https://cycling74.com/products/new-max-version-8
(Note the improvement to the fake cable workflow they dropped in the middle of the Vizzie 2 video)

https://docs.cycling74.com/max7/vignett ... sage_topic
https://docs.cycling74.com/max7/vignett ... _max_topic

https://nsuspray.github.io/Live_API_Doc/
http://beatwise.proboards.com/board/5
http://www.maxobjects.com/


Also, since I'm already talking about Reaktor and BEAP, I want to mention a cool feature in Max For Cats' OSCiLLOT (obs: not free).

If you tried to build stuff with Reaktor or VCVRack, you know that the modules are monophonic. If you want to build a polyphonic synth, it is basically Fake Cable Hell.

OSCiLLOT has those same fake modules you plug with fake cables, just like Reaktor, Tassman, VCV, etc.

But it has a simple switch that turns the monophonic modular synth you just built into polyphonic (up to 6 voices), no extra work needed:



Cool huh?

[edit: Also, people are sleeping on the new Packs in Live 10, they are great.]

[jonljacobi]

Both are great programs. I can't get by Bitwig's context commands all at the top of the interface or its tedious manual time correction, or the jumbled visual mess that is Live's arranger. I will say that Bitwig's interface scales better, and doesn't leave any elements behind, as Live does with its preferences dialog, which remains tiny no matter what the zoom level.

These are not important things to most people.

[Winstontaneous]

Give 'em a test and see for yourself. I sold Bitwig 1.x because it was super inefficient on my MacBook Pro, they ditched the promised full modularity for v. 2, "sandboxed" plugins started crashing the app, and weirdness with 3rd-party controller scripts.

For my needs Live 10 + Push 2 is the best DAW I've found (though direly in need of comping). I won't try to convince anyone else of its merits, it just gets out of the way and lets me get into a creative, productive mindset. I also use Logic for its comping, FlexTime/Pitch and awesome instruments/FX but otherwise I find it terribly clunky and unintuitive. Reason and Reaper get occasional use as well.

[Echoes in the Attic]

I recently considered going back to Live due to a couple issues in Bitwig like issues with the digital pen (which I use a lot) because of Bitwigs touch mode, whereas the pen works fine in Live, plus Bitwig not recording the midi channel so sometimes separate tracks can actually work better for multi-channel midi in Live, plus I like live's modulation clips better (like the grid responding to shuffle and the way the drawing works on the grid). I was also really into the Simpler improvements with timestretch etc. But when I actually went to use it, there were too many things I got used to in Bitwig that I can't give up, like the way the device panels work, or the macros and modulation assignments. Everything works relatively and the original parameters can still be adjusted, unlike Live where once you learn a macro the original is locked from editing. That's a big one, but also hybrid tracks and the multi-out VST devices, don't have to worry about time synced effects and delay compensation. I'm sure I could go on. So yeah I stayed with Bitwig.

[antic604]

And while you're right about effects (it still boggles my mind when I load some factory presets), then I meant this more about the raw effects, comparing them 1:1. In Live you can also chain stuff together, put them in rack, split the sounds, etc. so I guess in the end possibilities are pretty much very similar.

You cannot nest devices in Live. They only function as separate independent FX.

In Bitwig Delay, you can nest any device or chain of devices inside the feedback path of the Delay. In Delay-4, each of the 4 delay lines can have its own chain of other devices (including VST's) inside its feedback path. Not possible in Live (without having to build a complex M4L device requiring a lot of skill)

Yes, you're right - there are some clever things in some devices, like the Dynamics also being able of expansion and having a dedicated slot for FX put on the sidechain signal, which can be used for look-ahead or filtering, etc.

Still, on the whole I think Live's FX devices are more complete. I mean you can't beat the fact, that - since v10 - Live's Utility can go down to -inf dB, while Bitwig's Tool only to -36dB (or so)

[SLiC]

I think perhaps for many users its the 'big picture' rather than the technical details...Despite being the most requested feature for a long time Live still doesn't have in clip editing, this is something I use all of the time and it is why I switched initially (now I say as I love the workflow and the CV side). The BWS team see to listen to what the users want as well as having their own vision (I don't remember anyone asking for CV or Midi slave, but I love these features!).

If (as I suspect) the next update on BWS (due any time) adds a lot of step/linear editor features it really will looking at taking on mainstream DAWS etc rather than just being 'Live' Vs 'Bitwig'....BWS could take on Logic, Cubase, S13 etc, Live will always be 'Live' (and I guess that's why a lot of people love it!!)

[Kypresso]

For me, i prefer bitwig over live because i can use my nektar panorama with bitwig and bitwig runs natively on linux.

[dusted william]

Can Ableton live, with MAX 4 LIVE, send on multiple midi channels internally?

For instance.

one track of NORA sending different on different midi channels to individual tracks instead of all channels combined to one?

Can bitwig do that?

[zerocrossing]

I think they're both very good DAWs, though Bitwig won for me (despite me being a Live guy since v4) because I work with an MPE controller (Roli Rise) a lot, and working with it in Live was a cluster f. I was pleasantly surprised to find Bitwig's modulation system when I made the switch, and it's great. You could probably achieve similar results using M4L, but in v9 I found the implementation a bit crude. There's still a few things I'm learning in Bitwig, but so far it's been a pretty smooth transition and I especially like how I can easily add a global LFO, eg or aftertouch to any parameter in any plugin.

[Topcheese]

Can Ableton live, with MAX 4 LIVE, send on multiple midi channels internally?

For instance.

one track of NORA sending different on different midi channels to individual tracks instead of all channels combined to one?

This might be of help answer your question. I haven't tested it out, it is rather old.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=460628

[v1o]

So far it seems like workflow considerations are the main reasons why people choose to go with either. But Ableton has a much larger user community; plenty of conferences, seminars, user groups, meet ups and lots of freely available content. KVR is a bit of an outlier in that there’s a lot more Bitwig users on here compared to most places.

[pdxindy]

So far it seems like workflow considerations are the main reasons why people choose to go with either. But Ableton has a much larger user community; plenty of conferences, seminars, user groups, meet ups and lots of freely available content. KVR is a bit of an outlier in that there’s a lot more Bitwig users on here compared to most places.

Yeah... the community support is a clear advantage for Live...

I decided to go with Bitwig because it supports MPE controllers and Live has no MPE support whatsoever. That was what initially decided it for me.

It has only been after using Bitwig and watching its development and the design choices the Bitwig devs were/are making that I reached the point where I would use Bitwig over Live regardless of the MPE stuff.

Ableton hasn't done much to the core Live in recent years. Who knows when or if ever they will add MPE support. Bitwig added the best unison implementation I've seen in a DAW. Bitwig added the modulators and they can be per voice. Bitwig made the midi timing tight and it integrates well with CV modular gear. And I feel very confident to say that Bitwig will address the lack of midi channel support before Live does. Ableton has mostly been adding complementary stuff around the core app. I don't feel excitement about where Live will be in 3-5 years. I do with Bitwig because their vision is fresh and they are more ready to tackle the core app stuff.