My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
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jancivil
KVRAF
17518 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:52 pm

Sascha Franck wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:19 am
@jancivil, it's not about building your own computers.

It's also not about Macs being (too) pricey.
It was for people in the thread.
Sascha Franck wrote: It's about performing trivial tasks to keep going without breaking the bank. Such as upgrading your SSDs. Or your RAM.
Already acknowledged the RAM part. I f**ked up not putting at least a 2TB drive in this thing, saving money.
Also said I'm not going to defend their business model. I still think what I spent is a good choice for me, while people reacted strongly with the hoary old trope about building computers like I'm too stupid to live, not being their mirror.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
11070 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:26 pm

dellboy wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:02 am
keyman_sam wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:31 am
I'm tempted by the latest Mac mini i7, spec'd out (512 SSD/8GB ram).
I'm thinking - Either
A) Retire my current PC to be a slave, and build medium-sized templates using the Mac AND PC.
B) Use the Mac mini standalone (32GB), and build conservative templates that can be loaded in the Mac mini, in favor of simplified setup. The PC will be put to pasture. When the time comes, bring out the PC.
C) Get a Dell R720 server spec'd to 96GB RAM and build large templates with Mac + Server.

I've realized it's prudent to load VEP in a single machine. Either use VEP on a slave, and all the power it offers, or stick with a limited set of known instruments in a smaller, more solid setup. Trying to decide between the two.
Fully spec'd Mac-mini, including Logic Pro - UK £3,859 ($4,922)

Bargain, I'll take two !
At no point was "Fully spec'd" mentioned.

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Tronam
KVRAF
1621 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:28 pm

Sascha Franck wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:02 pm
Tronam wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:43 pm
Or pay 1/4 that price for the 6-core model and add up to 64GB of 3rd party RAM later on as needed.
Are you sure you can do that yourself?
And if so, what about the internal SSD?
They actually pointed out the SO-DIMMs in the keynote presentation, which is unusual for Apple. It looks very user accessible:

Image

I feel pessimistic about the SSD though. With the T2 chip handling all sorts of things like secure boot and realtime encryption I suspect the SSD is paired with it in some kind of proprietary way that would prevent using some random 3rd party drive. I could be wrong. It's interesting how Apple is gradually creating these hybrid systems where things like the storage controller, power management, I/O, fingerprint scanning, camera ISP, secure enclave, etc... are now being handled by their own ARM processor. They're offloading all sorts of stuff from Intel, save for the main processing.

Sascha Franck
KVRAF
12492 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:19 am

Tronam wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:28 pm
They actually pointed out the SO-DIMMs in the keynote presentation, which is unusual for Apple. It looks very user accessible:
Yeah, got that from the other thread and some looking around already. At least something. Their own RAM upgrades are truly ridiculous.
I feel pessimistic about the SSD though.
Indeed it rather looks like you wouldn't be able to exchange it - at least not as easily as it once was (even if you may not have to kinda trick out the dreaded T2 chip, it could still be an issue getting to whatever soldering joints or whatever they're doing this time).
It's quite a shame, really. A company such as Apple shouldn't really need to perform these uber-cheesy stunts to get yet some more money into their pockets.
Ok, if you only use that Mac Mini as a desktop, disk space shouldn't be an issue. But for the way I often used to work, it'd also make up for a nice mobile machine. I usually need my computer at two places, at home and in my music refuge (the latter unfortunately being gone for the time being, but whatever - there's gonna be a new one). At both places I already have monitors, keyboards and mice, so moving a Mac Mini around would be every bit as trivial as doing it with the laptop that I used so far.
In addition, with the ever growing size of applications and libraries of all sorts (not just sample libraries), it's always a nice idea to have as much internal storage space as possible.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

dellboy
KVRian
794 posts since 28 Mar, 2007

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:42 am

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:26 pm


At no point was "Fully spec'd" mentioned.
Yes, you are right. He wanted a Mac mini with 32 GB ram. If he he went for the lowest option - Core i3 -128 GB SSD - 8 GB ram, + Logic Pro, it would cost £1538.99 ($1982.50).

Apple says that it is possible to upgrade the memory,but only through their authorized service station. So he could go for the base option and void his warranty to add his own ram. In that case £998.99 ($1287.57) with Logic Pro. Would Logic Pro run very well at that low spec ?

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fmr
KVRAF
8519 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:25 am

dellboy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:42 am
Yes, you are right. He wanted a Mac mini with 32 GB ram. If he he went for the lowest option - Core i3 -128 GB SSD - 8 GB ram, + Logic Pro, it would cost £1538.99 ($1982.50).

Apple says that it is possible to upgrade the memory,but only through their authorized service station. So he could go for the base option and void his warranty to add his own ram. In that case £998.99 ($1287.57) with Logic Pro. Would Logic Pro run very well at that low spec ?
I'm sure he will be able to open it, and take a look at the autoload :hihi:
Fernando (FMR)

Sascha Franck
KVRAF
12492 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:39 am

fmr wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:25 am
I'm sure he will be able to open it, and take a look at the autoload :hihi:
Nah, it's still amazingly efficient. Possibly with the exception of most Alchemy patches and that stupid Ultrabeat wrapper they're calling "Drum Machine Designer" (which is a disgrace in each and every aspect, really).
A 128GB SSD would however possibly end up in problems installing the factory content in its full glory - and moving it seems to be a major hassle (even if Logic now supports that from inside).

If I were to buy such a Mini to run Logic, I'd possibly go for the 3.0GHz 6-Core i5 and 256GB (basic options), then upgrade the RAM myself later on and get a decent external USB3-drive for anything else but the factory content. Comes in at €1249, which - obviously - isn't cheap at all, but it should run Logic pretty well.
But seriously, for that amount of money, I'd possibly still purchase a second hand 2x6-core Mac Pro from 2010 or 2012. Should go for less money, even with 32GB RAM and, say, two Samsung EVO 860 500GB SSDs. Needs a new GPU for Mojave, but well, so far you can still use High Sierra for anything just fine.
That very machine would offer less CPU juice per thread (so some Alchemy patches might still use up an entire thread), but if you lay out things carefully, the 24 threads available will take you a long way, really.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

dellboy
KVRian
794 posts since 28 Mar, 2007

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:02 am

Sascha Franck wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:39 am

But seriously, for that amount of money, I'd possibly still purchase a second hand 2x6-core Mac Pro from 2010 or 2012.
Since you first mentioned this I have been looking for one of these,and they are in pretty short supply locally. So I looked on ebay, and they still make pretty good money for the late, pre - 2013 models. So then I turned my attention to a pre-2013 Mac mini,and they make good money as well. One thing good that can be said about Apple stuff, it holds its value pretty well. The main lesson you learn when looking around is that people want Macs that are upgrade-able, and these come at a premium. As I only want a Mac to run Logic, and there is no way to demo it, I could go through all the hassle only to find I do not like it, but I shall keep looking.

keyman_sam
KVRAF
4010 posts since 8 Mar, 2005

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:38 am

Again, waiting to see the benchmarks on these Mac minis. I wouldn't be surprised if they outperformed the iMacs.

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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
11070 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:12 am

dellboy wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:02 am
As I only want a Mac to run Logic, and there is no way to demo it, I could go through all the hassle only to find I do not like it, but I shall keep looking.
Come for LPX. Stay for OSX. Happened to me, although I bought in at Logic 7.

One other thing that never seems to get mentioned in these kinds of thread: Despite money not stretching as far as it does when shopping for Windows machines, the Mac option does essentially give you two computers in one. Bootcamp allows the operation of a 100% i.e zero-overhead Windows machine. And with Parallels (A small investment, which always seems to be on sale), integration can be easier still.

Regarding your doubts as to whether you'd like LPX: In your position, I'd consider paying for a month's subscription to MacProVideo. They offer tons of courses for Logic, and you'd definitely be able to get a much better idea of whether you are likely to gel with it's workflow by watching people who have in-depth experience. Could save you from making a big mistake, or offer you enough confidence to make a decision that you'll really end up enjoying :tu:

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Tronam
KVRAF
1621 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:38 am

Yeah, macOS and Logic are my primary reasons for sticking with the Mac, not to mention all the little ecosystem benefits, but everyone's mileage will vary. The upfront cost is higher, but in my experience the longevity and resale value is as well. One way to demo this stuff (albeit really expensively :o ), is to get it at an Apple Store and try it out for 2 weeks; Their return policy is about as painless as it gets. You can get refunds on App Store purchases as well, so long as it isn't too frequent.

keyman_sam
KVRAF
4010 posts since 8 Mar, 2005

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:30 pm

There doesn't seem to be anything like Cubase's mediaBay on Logic. The browser is inadequate, and doesn't show wave form preview where I can click around.

Clip gain on the clip info bar, is another thing. Can I assign a shortcut to increase or decrease clip gain (with visual update)? Give me these two things and I'd seriously consider Logic.

Sascha Franck
KVRAF
12492 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:50 pm

keyman_sam wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:30 pm
There doesn't seem to be anything like Cubase's mediaBay on Logic. The browser is inadequate, and doesn't show wave form preview where I can click around.
I seriously wish there was something like that in Logic. But there isn't. My workaround is to use Loopcloud for things such as loops and other longer samples and the ADSR Sample Manager for one shots (both free and offering some nice other features).
Clip gain on the clip info bar, is another thing. Can I assign a shortcut to increase or decrease clip gain (with visual update)? Give me these two things and I'd seriously consider Logic.
There (finally, woohoo, only took them ages) is independent gain for regions by now. No idea whether there's a shortcut for it (not unlikely, Logic has shortcuts for everything), I'm not using it often enough, but from all I know there's no way to display it on the region itself, so you always need to look at the inspector.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4936 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: My DAW PC hates me though I shower it with nothing but love..time to switch to a Mac?

Post Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:03 am

dellboy wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:28 am
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:09 am
What bothers me is people prescribing their preference to others.
Eh ?
Telling other people they should make the same choices. Telling people they should prefer the same thing. Prescription. “A recommendation that is authoritatively put forward”.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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