Why you left Bitwig?

[machinesworking]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

Same, I don't feel threatened by his minor jibs? Is there anything more than a mild insinuation that Bitwig is a cult? As a mac user I'm so used to people doing that on KVR about anything people like using, that I don't even acknowledge it.

[wasabi25]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

I have to say I do agree.

[Biscotto]

I like pdxindy, he has a real talent in sound making.
I may have overreacted in my last post but I understand that when someone loves his tools it feels compelled to step in and voice his/her personal and valid reason to stick with it.

Nothing wrong in that (OT?) and nothing wrong to write according to the topic‘S title.

[machinesworking]

I’m sorry I hurt you “safe space” Man
On the other hand your reasons to stick with BWS look to me like a cage made of MPE and Polyphonic modulations. That’s definitely your choices and your rights.

If everyone can stop referring to safe spaces to invalidate someone else's opinion that would increase the intellectual content of internet conversations by a thousand fold. Referring to features someone wants or needs as a "cage" is probably why pxindy thinks your opinions are rude. No reason for that.

I also find useful the fact that with m4l I can, in most cases, get incredibly useful tools for free and pay for core features when added to the program on updates.
BWS adds those tools, in limited number, periodically and charge a full fee

That’s another topic but a valid observation.

It's $349 full price for me to upgrade Live Suite, I think if you want or need to stay on the subscription plan of Bitwigs, yes it's more expensive, but if you don't it's cheaper. Personally I have a hard time with BIG one time payments, and don't mind smaller payments. I bought the upgrade on sale for less than $129 (jrrshop), and plan on waiting as long as I can to upgrade.
Compare and contrast, Ableton's updates past the v10 upgrade came fast for about 6 months, now it's a crawl of mostly maintenance updates.

And if someone has the time and will to create awesome tools, that also can be done in Ableton. Yes PITA but available on demand.

Yeah, that's a personal choice that I chose not to make. Max/MSP was always a bit buggy, and it destabilized Live for years when introduced, it didn't make me want to run out and learn to code in it, no matter how object oriented it is.
It's also exactly this that made me think Ableton wasn't going to receive any significant improvements to the basic sequencer after it was introduced. Any feature people request will now be answered with "you can to that in M4L." I see this as a significant change in direction that I wasn't OK with. Live is now more complicated when you want to dive deep than any other DAW, and I found/find it a strange juxtaposition that it grafted an object oriented programming language in Max into it's intentionally intuitive anyone can understand it interface.


It's all good as far as choices are concerned, like I said, I'm torn between Bitwig and Logic at the moment, and if DP gets MPE and/or articulation mapping I'm there in a heartbeat.

[pdxindy]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

This crap is unnecessary in what was a friendly conversation “ It's more of a "Users War" jumping in to desperately defend "Their Baby" as soon someone from anywhere on the planet says something "Inappropriate" to their "Current and Transitory DAW" of choice ATM.”

Stick to gear not personal attacks

[SLiC]

And then when Ableton 10.5 comes out (in 2020?) with a load of updates we can discuss all this again!

And then again when Bitwig 3.5 comes out...Cubase 11 is out in November...

DAW wars never end !!

This is true in some respects, but I think the next wave of updates for Live will really determine its direction. I think Live will get MPE, but I am not so sure about the other stuff users have been requesting for as long as I can remember- in clip editing, comping etc. Jezus they cant even give us more coillections- how hard can that be!!!

If Bitwigs next update (which you can almost guarantee will be in a few months) adds comping and much better linear editing and Live adds 'a new synth' I think a few more Live users may wander over...some people are loosing patience on he Live forums and beta forums

[Passing Bye]

....and am working towards using Logic again....

Did you had a chance to test Logic 10.5 CPU usage? Is it same as before or live/clip launching stuff had influence on that aspect too?

I haven't had a chance to yet, I don't figure it's much of a CPU cost though. Honestly the differences between the major old school DAWs isn't enough to make me choose one over the other, DP, Logic, and Reaper all perform very similarly with Reaper coming in first and Logic usually only one plug in behind DP. <-- To be fair as well, Logic being better tested against than poor under appreciated DP, has less of a hit with things like Maschine, MPC, and other sequencer style plug ins.
Bitwig does perform significantly better than Live though, and generally not as good as the big DAWs.

Dunno, I had a quick go at it when 10.5 came out and I was surprised that Bitwig performed almost the same as Logic, Logic multi core spread was quite better I might add and it balanced it out until the end, no spikes or glitches, just overloaded and stopped, Bitwig on other hand started crapping out soon because of CPU spikes, but you could still get there nonetheless, I noticed before that Bitwig have issue with CPU spikes, it's just something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

[Passing Bye]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

This crap is unnecessary in what was a friendly conversation “ It's more of a "Users War" jumping in to desperately defend "Their Baby" as soon someone from anywhere on the planet says something "Inappropriate" to their "Current and Transitory DAW" of choice ATM.”

Stick to gear not personal attacks

Agree, at this point he really got too personally involved in something so casual as leaving one DAW for 11 others, there's like last 5 pages of why Biscotto left Bitwig, let's move on from it already.

[pdxindy]

If everyone can stop referring to safe spaces to invalidate someone else's opinion that would increase the intellectual content of internet conversations by a thousand fold. Referring to features someone wants or needs as a "cage" is probably why pxindy thinks your opinions are rude. No reason for that.

Yeah... that safe spaces comment is also rude as is the cage bit. How about sticking to gear and not insulting personal comments! That works much better for having a useful interaction.

It’s fun to talk about gear... not so when it starts to get personal

[machinesworking]

....and am working towards using Logic again....

Did you had a chance to test Logic 10.5 CPU usage? Is it same as before or live/clip launching stuff had influence on that aspect too?

I haven't had a chance to yet, I don't figure it's much of a CPU cost though. Honestly the differences between the major old school DAWs isn't enough to make me choose one over the other, DP, Logic, and Reaper all perform very similarly with Reaper coming in first and Logic usually only one plug in behind DP. <-- To be fair as well, Logic being better tested against than poor under appreciated DP, has less of a hit with things like Maschine, MPC, and other sequencer style plug ins.
Bitwig does perform significantly better than Live though, and generally not as good as the big DAWs.

Dunno, I had a quick go at it when 10.5 came out and I was surprised that Bitwig performed almost the same as Logic, Logic multi core spread was quite better I might add and it balanced it out until the end, no spikes or glitches, just overloaded and stopped, Bitwig on other hand started crapping out soon because of CPU spikes, but you could still get there nonetheless, I noticed before that Bitwig have issue with CPU spikes, it's just something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

It 100% depends on what plug ins you run, and what processor you use. It's why these tests are so controversial. I ran tests with Diva and Reaktor Blocks with Logic, Bitwig, DP, Reason and Live. Live performed the worst by far, hardly any noticeable optimization for anything. Bitwig did fantastic with Diva and not so good with Reaktor Blocks, which was the exact opposite for Logic, DP etc. This wasn't a subtle difference, and the plug ins were randomly chosen for their CPU piggishness to make the test manageable. Bitwig can run more instances of Diva than Logic, but the difference in Reaktor Blocks is much much more drastically in favor of Logic. I think some of this has to do with U-He and Bitwig being pretty close, they have partnered up a few times, so U-He optimizes for Bitwig well.

[pdxindy]

And then when Ableton 10.5 comes out (in 2020?) with a load of updates we can discuss all this again!

And then again when Bitwig 3.5 comes out...Cubase 11 is out in November...

DAW wars never end !!

This is true in some respects, but I think the next wave of updates for Live will really determine its direction. I think Live will get MPE, but I am not so sure about the other stuff users have been requesting for as long as I can remember- in clip editing, comping etc. Jezus they cant even give us more coillections- how hard can that be!!!

If Bitwigs next update (which you can almost guarantee will be in a few months) adds comping and much better linear editing and Live adds 'a new synth' I think a few more Live users may wander over...some people are loosing patience on he Live forums and beta forums

So you think Live will get MPE support in the next major update? I hope so, not that I’m likely to upgrade (still have suite 9) and use Live. They would need to add full midi channel support (not there currently) and it could also be a lot of work to integrate it to M4L and all the Live instruments. I doubt the AAS synths will be updated for MPE. My guess is it will be staged process and will take a couple of major and minor updates to fully realize.

[apoclypse]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

This crap is unnecessary in what was a friendly conversation “ It's more of a "Users War" jumping in to desperately defend "Their Baby" as soon someone from anywhere on the planet says something "Inappropriate" to their "Current and Transitory DAW" of choice ATM.”

Stick to gear not personal attacks

Well they are not wrong? I mean for you to even see that as rude means that maybe you are taking the defend "The babay" portion way too seriously. He was making a general statement that could pretty much be applied to any DAW war which KVR has plenty of. It never looked like a direct attack on Bitwig to me, but if you took it that way then maybe he has a point.

[Passing Bye]

....and am working towards using Logic again....

Did you had a chance to test Logic 10.5 CPU usage? Is it same as before or live/clip launching stuff had influence on that aspect too?

I haven't had a chance to yet, I don't figure it's much of a CPU cost though. Honestly the differences between the major old school DAWs isn't enough to make me choose one over the other, DP, Logic, and Reaper all perform very similarly with Reaper coming in first and Logic usually only one plug in behind DP. <-- To be fair as well, Logic being better tested against than poor under appreciated DP, has less of a hit with things like Maschine, MPC, and other sequencer style plug ins.
Bitwig does perform significantly better than Live though, and generally not as good as the big DAWs.

Dunno, I had a quick go at it when 10.5 came out and I was surprised that Bitwig performed almost the same as Logic, Logic multi core spread was quite better I might add and it balanced it out until the end, no spikes or glitches, just overloaded and stopped, Bitwig on other hand started crapping out soon because of CPU spikes, but you could still get there nonetheless, I noticed before that Bitwig have issue with CPU spikes, it's just something that needs to be fixed ASAP.

It 100% depends on what plug ins you run, and what processor you use. It's why these tests are so controversial. I ran tests with Diva and Reaktor Blocks with Logic, Bitwig, DP, Reason and Live. Live performed the worst by far, hardly any noticeable optimization for anything. Bitwig did fantastic with Diva and not so good with Reaktor Blocks, which was the exact opposite for Logic, DP etc. This wasn't a subtle difference, and the plug ins were randomly chosen for their CPU piggishness to make the test manageable. Bitwig can run more instances of Diva than Logic, but the difference in Reaktor Blocks is much much more drastically in favor of Logic. I think some of this has to do with U-He and Bitwig being pretty close, they have partnered up a few times, so U-He optimizes for Bitwig well.

That's why I was interested in your findings, you really put your time and do this test's deep, think it was Zebra and in clip launching mode in both DAW's, that's all I had time for at that point, it was like iMac with i series Intel processor, I know you have Xeon based desktop and i series laptop and both yield different kind of interesting results, especially when Diva is subject of testing, so yeah, if you ever find time for another round of test's, it would be really cool and appreciated.

[machinesworking]

So you think Live will get MPE support in the next major update? I hope so, not that I’m likely to upgrade (still have suite 9) and use Live. They would need to add full midi channel support (not there currently) and it could also be a lot of work to integrate it to M4L and all the Live instruments. I doubt the AAS synths will be updated for MPE. My guess is it will be staged process and will take a couple of major and minor updates to fully realize.

My two main DAWs before I got interested in MPE were Live and DP10. I don't think for plug ins in general it would be that hard for Live to get MPE compared to DP10. I'm not sure what's holding them back really? Probably some CPU spikes etc. associated with addressing that much MIDI information all at once. Live already has a single record enabled function that works with Push etc. to auto assign controllers like Bitwig etc. it's just not addressing 16 channels currently. OTOH DP addresses the "Any" setting for MIDI channels in the main menu, not per track, so IMO it will take them even longer to address MPE, or they will have to add in a new type of MIDI address with an "All" setting. Compared, Live could just revamp it's Any setting to an All setting.

They're slow as molasses these days in terms of upgrades though. I don't really get it? Live, Logic and Pro Tools are so far above the other DAWs in terms of sales it's not funny. They can't be hurting for money! With Both DP and Live it could be said that they wanted to 100% follow MIDI 2.0 specs, and Ableton have an even more prominent role in MIDI 2.0 than MOTU so..

[Biscotto]

No attachments whatsoever, no crusade whatsoever, just moved on.

Your rude personal attacks say otherwise

Where has he been rude and personal ?

I have been following this thread and have found his posts to be friendly and lighthearted.

This crap is unnecessary in what was a friendly conversation “ It's more of a "Users War" jumping in to desperately defend "Their Baby" as soon someone from anywhere on the planet says something "Inappropriate" to their "Current and Transitory DAW" of choice ATM.”

Stick to gear not personal attacks

But it is true! Defending your points in a Topic dedicated to users moving on is weak since no one has call you on your choice for still using BWS out of the blue.

Of course you will find many Inappropriate points here, that's why we are discussing the reason to leave BWS.
I see users leaving Ableton. Good for Them and more power to them as well.
Should I go and make sure I disagree with them because Ableton serves me well? I never would and will.

And what about when was using S1 full time? Should I go to my posts and regret I was blind to Ableton and BWS for that period?
This would never end. Every time I move to a new DAW and Swear that's IT!

I'm a BTW user as well, still installed and part of the team.
I do not use foul language or curse here. You think that's rude, including "Safe Space" then here are my my apologies to you but I have thick skin growing up in EDIT: (lets say though times), still it may be not an excuse to give you a piece of my mind (sarcastic, but I do not think Rude IMHO).

Still think your are a very talented BWS user, but definitely the Cage comment is how I see it (if it were myself) and not necessarily personal at all.