Why you left Bitwig?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRAF
30020 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:38 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:59 am
xbitz wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:52 am
^^^
Compatibility
...
Support for Audio Units effect, instrument, and MIDI plug-ins
...
https://www.apple.com/logic-pro/specs/
What you're saying? That it doesn't support VST after all?
As far as I know, Logic doesn't support VST. The internet also says that you need a VST wrapper. Maybe I'm wrong.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

KVRist
76 posts since 7 May, 2012

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:58 am

This things are relevant to me and to many others . Yes I want ease of use , Bitwig is not THE DAW for this . I want to make music , not to search in manual how to ....

KVRian
1302 posts since 7 Dec, 2013 from Earth

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:03 am

The biggest issue I have with Bitwig is their pricing model. They're a small player with the pricing model of a big corporation.
I'm sure that a more competitive pricing model would help them grow and gain more market share.

Potential customers see the 'One year of free updates' and the price for renewal and automatically assume it's a subscription (which is basically is if you want to stay up-to-date).

I renewed my update plan last July because of the Grid, but since then I have not seen anything that interests me in the latest updates. They will need to release something very impressive to make me renew ever again.

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fmr
KVRAF
10538 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:08 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:59 am
xbitz wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:52 am
^^^
Compatibility
...
Support for Audio Units effect, instrument, and MIDI plug-ins
...
https://www.apple.com/logic-pro/specs/
What you're saying? That it doesn't support VST after all?
It doesn't, since Apple created the AU plug-in format, but the thread is about Bitwig, which does support VST and runs in botrh macOS AND Windows :hihi:
Fernando (FMR)

KVRian
506 posts since 29 Mar, 2016

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:13 am

Not trying to take over this post but I was puzzled by the phrase why you left Bitwig. Im like why would anyone leave Bitwig now its just getting started? I have used many many other DAWS over the year. Bitwig is the first and I mean this, the first to address serious modulation capabilities and sound design features that other Daws are still working to improve. And Bitwig architecture is new while the others are older and now feel like patches or layers on top of existing code.

But I suppose if you are not a sound designer or not into using your computer to make music then Bitwig is daunting at first due to the new layouts menus and ways of doing things. But once you learn it maybe you like it.

I agree with the thoughts about renewals. I think each user needs to decide for themselves if what they currently have is good and if a new feature comes out that you must have then renew at that time. But definitely no do not renew every year. Thats a waste of money IMO unless each year its something you just have to have. Perhaps this is what the Bitwig developers have had in mind anyway. They are going to work to earn your business unlike other companies who just throw out what they want or what a few "professionals" want and make you try to like it.

KVRAF
3001 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:56 am

BONES wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:12 pm
Passing Bye wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:33 pm
Deedrah moved to Bitwig from Logic and we will see more of that in future when word of mouth starts spreading in those circles, most people don’t know it exist, Live is over hyped.
Who or what the hell is Deedrah? (Obviously, it's a rhetorical question - I looked it up - but you can't expect everyone to just know who people in your chosen genre are and you certainly can't think that just because someone nobody has heard of does something that the rest of the world is bound to follow suit.)
I was responding to him and he knows very well who is Deedrah.

Second, I'm not the one giving approval of one DAW because of his social status, if you actually bothered to look into context of my reply, but you obviously didn't.

He said no one famous he knows of uses Bitwig and I responded to that, word of mouth is one of the reasons why some were switching to Live, also they already used it for their live set's and one was that Logic/Cubase were stuck with their old solutions and people couldn't put up with it anymore, so slowly they adapted to Live and now they use it for everything.

I know far too many folks that ditched Logic for Live, but also plenty don't even know Bitwig exist's, they use internet for promotion, not that active on forums, so they miss on plenty, mostly rely on word of mouth from their peers and bother to mess with just proven stuff, so it takes off and spreads around, so it's just matter of time, that happened to Live too.
Last edited by Passing Bye on Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

KVRAF
9350 posts since 12 May, 2008

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:05 am

Reefius wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:03 am
The biggest issue I have with Bitwig is their pricing model. They're a small player with the pricing model of a big corporation.
I'm sure that a more competitive pricing model would help them grow and gain more market share.

Potential customers see the 'One year of free updates' and the price for renewal and automatically assume it's a subscription (which is basically is if you want to stay up-to-date).

I renewed my update plan last July because of the Grid, but since then I have not seen anything that interests me in the latest updates. They will need to release something very impressive to make me renew ever again.
The pricing model might be an issue for new users, before they understand it, I agree. They might get scared away. But actually it's a pretty great model. There is always a sale on yearly updates, so you can always pick it up cheaper than the normal price, usually not much over 100 or 120 usd. And the cool thing with that is that you can buy it ahead of time but not actually activate it until there are features that you want. So you just keep using your current version until then. Ableton Live used to have a major update every year. Nobody complained about that and usually paid a hefty price. With the Bitwig model, it's not a bad price, but the features come out more gradually and you jump on when something appeals to you. And can always make use of the sale since you don't have to activate the upgrade plan right away. I think it's a great system. But yeah all that is tough to communicate to a new potential user.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

KVRAF
9350 posts since 12 May, 2008

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:24 am

I personally don't know how someone could leave Bitwig after getting used to the features that are nowhere else. And I don't mean the Grid - I barely use the grid, as cool as it is. Before Bitwig made changes in V3 to midi handling and MPE I was a bit frustrated and went and tried Ableton again (it's what I used before Bitwig), and almost immediately realized that there was too much I was giving up with Bitwig. It's just so much simpler to have semi-complex instrument setups made easy. For example, in other DAWs like Ableton if I want to midi control an instrument but also an effect after that instrument, I need to have multiple tracks and route midi in complex ways. In Bitwig, all devices receive midi on a track. So if I need restrict the ranges of notes per device I just put a filter before devices. One track control devices in series is easy. Or having multiple outs from a VST. No separate tracks needed. The sub groups are right there as part of the device, kind of like a native drum machine. And obviously the modulation system and device controls just makes everything so much better. In Ableton when you arrange the order of VST controls, you can't even leave gaps to organize things better. And assigning macros disables the original controls. And only 8 macros! This stinks. I know Max devices can save the day here but that's another license level and doesn't seem as slick as the Bitwig modulation system usually. And in Bitwig everything is additive in terms of modulation. You can automate something by recording movements and then still be able to tweak the original control. I always wanted that in Ableton. But the moduolation system in general really adds a lot to VST usage as well as built-in devices. Then of course there's the MPE stuff which any MPE controller user wouldn't part with.

There are definitely things to improve. I think the main things at this point are are midi editing and arrangement stuff like some automation recording issues. It's really solid as a looping/clip oriented setup, but for proper arrangement in a traditional timeline, it has some work to do. But Bitwig tend to focus on on different themes at a given time and hopefully arrangement, midi editing etc. will get some attention. I'd imagine things like comping might come along with that. But overall I think the reason they focus on the things they do (even though some are puzzled by things like the micro-pitch stuff) is probably because they are doing the things they are passionate about and think are super cool and different or not possible in other products. They are a small team so they are able to do that. And from my experience they have listened to customers, even when they initially seemed like they wouldn't.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

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KVRian
530 posts since 8 Apr, 2018

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:28 am

I actually left Ableton for Bitwig. My main DAW is Cubase, but only because I am currently much faster in Cubase than in Bitwig. For me personally, Bitwig was more intuitive than Ableton and I felt at ease with Bitwig a lot faster than I ever did with Ableton. And I started with Ableton, before I immersed myself in Cubase. Obviously I am not speaking for others and I am not an uni-DAW fanatic, but I am glad that I gave Bitwig a chance. Currently it is my main platform for sound design as well as interfacing with my hardware, which was one of the main reasons I tried it out. I found the hardware integration easier/less cumbersome than routing it through Cubase. And the pricing model.....well I wonder how much those who complain about the pricing model spend on plugins they never use. It works for me, I get the impression non-users think it is a yearly compulsory upgrade, which is obviously not required. Besides, if we start complaining about upgrade pricing, we should all switch to FL studio, btw which I also own and use sometimes. There are actually things I really like about FL studio, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Skunk Mod
21282 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:48 am

jonljacobi wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:17 pm
Meffy... You know Cakewalk is now developed by BandLab?
Yes, and I'm glad Bandlab are continuing development on it. I've installed the Bandlab version on my Win10 laptop (which never had SPlat on it). Haven't had an opportunity to give it a proper workout yet, though. Never enough time.

KVRist
76 posts since 7 May, 2012

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:10 am

I'm for the easy part ... Reaper give me that , because right now I prefer hardware synths (I have 3 Korg and and 2 Yamaha , and 2 Roland ), and I use Reaper to record and Ableton to capture my idea . Soon I hope , I will be able to buy Osmose , an hardware synth with MPE and MPE+ .

Banned
2239 posts since 19 Dec, 2014

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:58 am

moss wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:55 am
Java is used as the "glue code" between the different parts of the software.
... uh oh ...

KVRAF
2127 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:38 pm

Daags wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:58 am
moss wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:55 am
Java is used as the "glue code" between the different parts of the software.
... uh oh ...
I work in IT and non-functional Java middleware is responsible for some of the biggest headaches I encounter.

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KVRian
1330 posts since 4 Oct, 2012 from Utah

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:52 pm

Java isn't bad though, speaking as someone who usually works with C++. The biggest problem I encounter with Java are with developers who don't know it's use case and how to make it work well. The biggest issue, always, is that developers assume the Garbage Collector will fix all of their memory management problem. No need to dealloc memory hoorah! In fact, this is true to an extent, but when the program needs to be efficient in run-time, this simply isn't the way to go. Also, you can still cause some nasty memory leaks with streams, which many forget to close/handle properly anyway. Now, there are ways to change the behavior of the garbage collector to make it work better for the task at hand, and thus ways to keep memory usage very tight as a result. This of course require knowledge and practice with manipulating the JVM and Classloaders, something most developers I think don't want to worry about (their focus is on the product, not the technology to make the product).

The other issue I see is with developers who think that OOP is an excuse to copy their data models everywhere. No. Pointers(C++)/References(C++/Java) exist for a reason. Use them.

Also poll driven programming is prevalent among Java mostly because Java is accessible to novice developers. Sure, it works, but it eats up unnecessary CPU time. Up until Java 8, event driven programming in Java was kind of a slog and very messy, but lambdas/method references fixed that.

But, teaching event driven programming to novice developers who already have jobs is difficult when it doesn't affect their paycheck. That last bit is my two cents but I see it all the time with my peers. If it doesn't affect their payroll, they see no reason in learning to be more efficient.

Also reflection is slow. Don't use reflection in real-time use cases. Please.

KVRian
773 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:10 pm

I haven't left Bitwig but I'm starting to realize that the DAW is overhyped with too little to show for the hype. On top of a subscription like update model that I don't care what anyone here says is a subscriptions model in everything but name. They might as well just start charging $10 bucks a month at this point.

That is what really turned me off about the DAW. I really like it, I can even put up with some of the what I think are critical missing features but having to pay for them to fix the crappy macOS performance because my sub ran out is total crap imo. I don't care about The Grid. I want meat and potatoes features and they also need to fix some of the odd design decisions they've made early on that make absolutely no sense imo. Controller support is awful. I like DrivenByMoss but I don't want to be beholden to the whims of some dude doing it in his spare time. He seems to be mostly interested in PUSH2 and that's pretty much it.

If Bitwig doesn't do something this year in-terms of updates I'm moving elsewhere. I re-upped for one more year (I've had the code for a few months but haven't applied it yet). I genuinely like the DAW it has a lot potential, it's had potential since version 1, now it's time to actually execute. There are too many options right now in the market to put up with mediocre products.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

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