Why you left Ableton?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRian
1258 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Post Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:58 pm

1. Garbage PDC. Between tracks is OK but 11 versions in, latency still isn't reported up the signal path so you can't put anytime based plugins like ShaperBox after a linear phase EQ, for example, without messing up the timing. You can work around this, provided the dev implements external MIDI triggering, like Cableguys have done with ShaperBox but it's not rock solid all of the time.

2. Disabled plugins still report latency. See point 1 for why this is a problem.

3. Audio editing is pitiful compared to literally every other DAW. No container clips for audio, so you have to choose between a messy arrangement with lots of slices or filling up the disk with new consolidated files, if you want to keep things neat. No strip silence, no slice to grid (for quick chops), no multiclip fade (on the same track), basic stuff that imo is way more important than an inferior wavetable synth (L10) and some (albeit nice) spectral devices.

I still like Live and I can get good work done in it; I've returned to L10 for a collaborative project and it's not too painful, but for new solo projects I will be using Bitwig from now on. It solves most of the aforementioned issues and adds some nice touches like plugin sandboxing, hybrid tracks, better modulation system to name but a few.
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KVRist
496 posts since 2 Nov, 2014

Post Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:56 pm

PieBerger wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:58 pm

3. Audio editing is pitiful compared to literally every other DAW. No container clips for audio, so you have to choose between a messy arrangement with lots of slices or filling up the disk with new consolidated files, if you want to keep things neat. No strip silence, no slice to grid (for quick chops), no multiclip fade (on the same track), basic stuff that imo is way more important than an inferior wavetable synth (L10) and some (albeit nice) spectral devices.

Ableton keep ignoring these essential features for years.

On top of it my gripes;
I can not restore original timing of quantized material later.
No bounce in place
Grid lines not following the groove
No cut, copy paste mute features in audio detail window. All of it has to be done on the arrangement window.
Can not quantize a midi region in arrangement window. Has to be done in the piano roll.
Not showing midi notes in the piano roll while recording.
Huge group tracks that has no use when contents are visible.
Can not simply select a sample in the browser and have a right click option to create a simpler track or bunch of them and create a drum rack.
Unified effects and instruments tab for 3rd party plugins.
Mixer fader triangles that require Hubble Telescope to see.
No disable and hide tracks

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KVRAF
10232 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:02 am

PieBerger wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:58 pm
...
Thanks for sharing this! I totally agree with you about audio editing. It wasn't bothering me much in v9.7, when I mostly used MIDI and audio was just for the odd DMT/aliens sample ;) but nowadays after trying to force myself to work more with audio in Bitwig, it was shocking how rudimentary Live is in this area... The fact that you can barely do anything with a sample outside of the Arranger timeline is frankly infuriating, especially when working in Session View. And even there it's quite limited, as you say.

BTW, I was watching this yesterday and was surprised it's 3x Cubase and 1x Studio One. Is Ableton losing its lead as a DAW of choice of psy-trance? :o

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 5Yh-wh0NWQ
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KVRian
1258 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Post Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:51 am

antic604 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:02 am
PieBerger wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:58 pm
...
BTW, I was watching this yesterday and was surprised it's 3x Cubase and 1x Studio One. Is Ableton losing its lead as a DAW of choice of psy-trance? :o
Not in the slightest. There was a poll in one of the psy groups on Facebook and Ableton had more votes than all of the other DAWs combined! Cubase is still a popular choice for a lot of the older and more established artists, but for newcomers it's becoming less and less popular. Even some diehard users, including the guy that runs Futurephonic have moved over to Live (and or Bitwig).
Always Read the Manual!

lpr
Banned
183 posts since 28 Dec, 2016

Post Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:01 am

I can work in Live just not as fast as I can in FL Studio. The piano roll is a deal breaker for me as well. I'm going to miss Live grooves though. Man that feature was sick. Also the audio to midi was phenomenal. Goodbye old friend once again.

KVRian
686 posts since 9 Aug, 2018

Post Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:08 am

Because in the end, despite some neat qualities and default (Suite) plugins, it doesn’t do a lot of what I would prefer a DAW to do.

I thought Ableton and Reaper would be a great pairing. No. One of those was totally unnecessary (for me). Reaper plus some third party plugins gets it done, and then some.

KVRAF
3141 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:12 am

lpr wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:01 am
I can work in Live just not as fast as I can in FL Studio. The piano roll is a deal breaker for me as well. I'm going to miss Live grooves though. Man that feature was sick. Also the audio to midi was phenomenal. Goodbye old friend once again.
Why should that be a problem??

The grooves in Ableton is nothing than some kind of quantizing according to information from existing midi files (groove files)...

You can achieve the same with FL Studio´s Quantizer which got already tons of "templates" and any midi file can be imported too...:
Quantize.jpg
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KVRian
872 posts since 14 Dec, 2014

Post Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:14 pm

In Live you can apply Grooves to audio, no only MIDI, and you can extract them from audio as well, not only from the original audio file, but also from warped audio.

Grooves are applied to Clips, not as a menu option for MIDI notes, so you can apply the same Groove to the whole Set (simply by using "select all" options).

So you can propagate rhythm changes from MIDI to MIDI/Audio and Audio to MIDI/Audio (again, not only from the original audio, but from the warped version you edited) through the whole project, keeping the whole thing in the same groove.

And grooves are non-destructive, the original MIDI/Warping is retained, and you can tweak the Grooves a bit real-time in the Groove Pool (a list with some parameters similar to Levels in that FL pic, but real-time and non-destructive).

Grooves can be just part of the Set without needing to set up templates then dig through menus, you create a bunch grooves very fast only for the current Set, just by editing some MIDI or warping audio then dragging into Groove Pool.

Of course you can save grooves as files too, searchable in the Browser, can be hot-swapped (again, non-destructive).

It is not a perfect system (I myself asked for some changes for Grooves in Live's "Centercode" site for feature suggestions), but it is very different from FL's Quantizer.

KVRAF
3141 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:08 pm

pottering wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:14 pm
In Live you can apply Grooves to audio, no only MIDI, and you can extract them from audio as well, not only from the original audio file, but also from warped audio.

Grooves are applied to Clips, not as a menu option for MIDI notes, so you can apply the same Groove to the whole Set (simply by using "select all" options).

So you can propagate rhythm changes from MIDI to MIDI/Audio and Audio to MIDI/Audio (again, not only from the original audio, but from the warped version you edited) through the whole project, keeping the whole thing in the same groove.

And grooves are non-destructive, the original MIDI/Warping is retained, and you can tweak the Grooves a bit real-time in the Groove Pool (a list with some parameters similar to Levels in that FL pic, but real-time and non-destructive).

Grooves can be just part of the Set without needing to set up templates then dig through menus, you create a bunch grooves very fast only for the current Set, just by editing some MIDI or warping audio then dragging into Groove Pool.

Of course you can save grooves as files too, searchable in the Browser, can be hot-swapped (again, non-destructive).

It is not a perfect system (I myself asked for some changes for Grooves in Live's "Centercode" site for feature suggestions), but it is very different from FL's Quantizer.
Well... let´s say 95% of the mentioned things I can do as well in FLS... perhaps not everything as comfortable but I´ll get easily enough the same results...
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lpr
Banned
183 posts since 28 Dec, 2016

Post Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:12 pm

Trancit wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:12 am
lpr wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:01 am
I can work in Live just not as fast as I can in FL Studio. The piano roll is a deal breaker for me as well. I'm going to miss Live grooves though. Man that feature was sick. Also the audio to midi was phenomenal. Goodbye old friend once again.
Why should that be a problem??

The grooves in Ableton is nothing than some kind of quantizing according to information from existing midi files (groove files)...

You can achieve the same with FL Studio´s Quantizer which got already tons of "templates" and any midi file can be imported too...:
Quantize.jpg
How do you import MIDI grooves into Ableton Live? Also can you set global amount of groove across all MIDI grooves? I don't believe you can but I do know you know more about FL than I do. Love your content btw.

KVRAF
3141 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:59 am

lpr wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:12 pm
How do you import MIDI grooves into Ableton Live?
You can extract the groove from every midi file, can´t you?
Ableton converts it then to it´s native format but if you drag in the converted file onto a midi track it´s still only some note triggers, which you can easily save as midi again...
Love your content btw.
Thank you!
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KVRAF
10232 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:38 am

I left Live because the on-line user manual is still for v10 :smack:

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/welcome-to-live/

(but it's still great, one of the best) :clap: :hug:
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Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
274 posts since 19 Oct, 2019

Post Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:11 am

Crashes too frequently
Grid lines looks blurry
Severe UI performance drop with non-integer zoom level (e.g 125%)
MIDI editing is horrendous

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KVRist
448 posts since 30 May, 2007

Post Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:17 am

No Linux version

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KVRAF
10232 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:21 am

tor.helge.skei wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:17 am
No Linux version
There is - it's called Bitwig v4 with .als import ;) :D
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Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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