Why you left Ableton?

[SLiC]

Why the hell not- the world is going to hell in a handbag, may as well have some 'fun', and that's what Live and PUSH is all about- smile in your face, everything's easy fun...I don't use any external VSTs, just treat Live and PUSH like hardware and its more than enough for me.

I have a lot of drum machine/grooveboxes (Elektron, Polyend Tracker, Circuit Tracks, MPC Live 2 etc) and I like them all for one reason or another (or they would be sold ) but if I could only have one of this type of thing, it would be Live + PUSH2!

I constantly use VST's... I have no interest in giving up using VST's just to use a midi controller. Before I stopped using Live, I had already drifted away from Push. I didn't find it satisfying as a midi keyboard replacement so I used another controller for that. Push is mainly for Session, not Arrangement. After a while I realized I was using Push a fairly small percentage of the time and that it is big and takes up precious space. It eventually got packed away and I never really missed it.

Live + Push is not the same as those other drum machine/grooveboxes. You still need a computer. It is still a computer plus midi controller, not an actual standalone machine. Push has no audio or midi connections so you still need an audio interface to use it with another machine. I can connect 2-3 of my Elektron boxes together without a computer or other hardware.

Good News!!! You CAN use VST's with LIVE ands PUSH and they all map and display beautifully with poly AT, I just 'choose' not to I have way to many VSTs and I find limiting what I use helps me me concentrate on the music (the same a when I use hardware only). There is more than enough in Live to make a tune and its all pre-mapped with lovely displays...just my personal choice, not a limitation (and you can always swap out for VST's later if required)

I am aware PUSH is a midi controller, but it is not generic, it is made by Ableton for Ableton and is vastly superior to any other controller I have used, so when in the 'virtual' world I use it as I think its 'best in class'. All my hardware is an another room in my studio as I like to get away from computers completely sometimes....I have owned pretty much every Elektron box and still have 3 of them, they are great...but I would still take Live and Push over them every time, even though its tethered to a PC!

[SLiC]

Here is a good example- playing the poly AT wavetable synth on the PUSH 2 is very much like using my Hydrasynth controls and displays...sure I could use a VST - serum or whatever, but no controller I have ever come across gives this type of graphical display interaction/feedback with zero set up time...I normally have to buy hardware to get this....and its like this for 100's of instruments and FX in Live out of the box...

https://youtu.be/m4gArP7mf3M

[pdxindy]

Good News!!! You CAN use VST's with LIVE ands PUSH and they all map and display beautifully with poly AT, I just 'choose' not to I have way to many VSTs and I find limiting what I use helps me me concentrate on the music (the same a when I use hardware only). There is more than enough in Live to make a tune and its all pre-mapped with lovely displays...just my personal choice, not a limitation (and you can always swap out for VST's later if required)

I am aware PUSH is a midi controller, but it is not generic, it is made by Ableton for Ableton and is vastly superior to any other controller I have used, so when in the 'virtual' world I use it as I think its 'best in class'. All my hardware is an another room in my studio as I like to get away from computers completely sometimes....I have owned pretty much every Elektron box and still have 3 of them, they are great...but I would still take Live and Push over them every time, even though its tethered to a PC!

I didn't find the VST's were particularly fluid with Push. I often ended up back with mouse and screen as a better workflow. I have a couple friends who use Live who also stopped using Push after a year or two. Push kinda forces a particular workflow and it is not for everyone.

Anyway, great for you that you enjoy it. I'm curious what your opinion will be a year from now.

My favorite DAW + 'controller' combo is Logic plus Logic Remote on the iPad. Besides, that prefer mouse and screen.

[pdxindy]

Here is a good example- playing the poly AT wavetable synth on the PUSH 2 is very much like using my Hydrasynth controls and displays...sure I could use a VST - serum or whatever, but no controller I have ever come across gives this type of graphical display interaction/feedback with zero set up time...I normally have to buy hardware to get this....and its like this for 100's of instruments and FX in Live out of the box...

I watched the first half of that video. Even using Ableton's own wavetable synth, I would rather design a sound on the expanded view using mouse and screen. A lot more info is visible at once rather than having to tab a lot to see it.

That video demonstrates exactly why the mouse and screen is faster.

[antic604]

Acid sound with audiorealism bassline ?

No, D-16 Group's Phoscyon. I'm a patriot

[antic604]

Push is mainly for Session, not Arrangement.

That video demonstrates exactly why the mouse and screen is faster.

You're 100% spot on for both.

But!

We are all different. For me, hyper-detailed control possibilities of screen + keyboard + mouse and the temptation to perfect things on a linear timeline are a bane of my productivity (even if I force myself to single DAW, that is ). I end up chiselling minutae details, instead of progressing the track. As a result I can spend 5 months on 5 minutes "piece" that I don't feel is anywhere near being finished... In that previous video, I was able to generate 2,5 minutes of "music" from 15 minutes of work.

For some of us, limitations and constraints are a blessing

In some weird way, I feel similarly about Bitwig vs. Live, with the former giving me many more tools (for the way I do music) and flexibility. But the one track I seriously started in Live I finished quickly, whereas dozens of "nonames" in Bitwig will probably stay that way forever...

I know it's all MY OWN fault, because I probably lack the discipline and focus to just finishing stuff, but if there's something that can help me, then why not try it?

[SLiC]

That video demonstrates exactly why the mouse and screen is faster.

If 'speed' is your primary goal, computers and mice may well be faster! On that basis no one should have any knobs or faders on any controller or keyboard.

For me personally, its about fun, feel and enjoyment of the experience of making music. I have paid a small fortune to not have to use 'a mouse and screen' in my studio, but that's probably just me or the fact that I am at heart I am a guitarist and I like to bash and twist things!

[pdxindy]

Push is mainly for Session, not Arrangement.

That video demonstrates exactly why the mouse and screen is faster.

You're 100% spot on for both.

But!

We are all different. For me, hyper-detailed control possibilities of screen + keyboard + mouse and the temptation to perfect things on a linear timeline are a bane of my productivity (even if I force myself to single DAW, that is ). I end up chiselling minutae details, instead of progressing the track. As a result I can spend 5 months on 5 minutes "piece" that I don't feel is anywhere near being finished... In that previous video, I was able to generate 2,5 minutes of "music" from 15 minutes of work.

For some of us, limitations and constraints are a blessing

In some weird way, I feel similarly about Bitwig vs. Live, with the former giving me many more tools (for the way I do music) and flexibility. But the one track I seriously started in Live I finished quickly, whereas dozens of "nonames" in Bitwig will probably stay that way forever...

I know it's all MY OWN fault, because I probably lack the discipline and focus to just finishing stuff, but if there's something that can help me, then why not try it?

Years back I used to work with a friend on a non-music related media project. He is amazing in how much he can get done in a short time. One time I was sitting and writing an article and getting caught up on minutia and my friend came over and just hit send... I laughed because it made me realize that the things I was fussing over were not important. Over the next few months I observed my friend and he helped me a lot in this specific regard. After that I was able to just get things done and be fast and productive.

Sure, if you think one tool or another will affect that, try it. My experience is that this or that tool doesn't change the basic problem in the long run... some change may have some effect in the short term, but then over time you will end up back in the same place. I don't believe there is any substitute for self development.

[liquidsound]

Push is mainly for Session, not Arrangement.

That video demonstrates exactly why the mouse and screen is faster.

You're 100% spot on for both.

But!

We are all different. For me, hyper-detailed control possibilities of screen + keyboard + mouse and the temptation to perfect things on a linear timeline are a bane of my productivity (even if I force myself to single DAW, that is ). I end up chiselling minutae details, instead of progressing the track. As a result I can spend 5 months on 5 minutes "piece" that I don't feel is anywhere near being finished... In that previous video, I was able to generate 2,5 minutes of "music" from 15 minutes of work.

For some of us, limitations and constraints are a blessing

In some weird way, I feel similarly about Bitwig vs. Live, with the former giving me many more tools (for the way I do music) and flexibility. But the one track I seriously started in Live I finished quickly, whereas dozens of "nonames" in Bitwig will probably stay that way forever...

I know it's all MY OWN fault, because I probably lack the discipline and focus to just finishing stuff, but if there's something that can help me, then why not try it?

It's not your fault, you are just like hunders of thousands musicians using Live and producing great stuff. The tool you choose to use for your "way" is the right tool. Your music is the Goal not Live or Bitwig or.. whatever.

[pdxindy]

That video demonstrates exactly why the mouse and screen is faster.

If 'speed' is your primary goal, computers and mice may well be faster! On that basis no one should have any knobs or faders on any controller or keyboard.

For me personally, its about fun, feel and enjoyment of the experience of making music. I have paid a small fortune to not have to use 'a mouse and screen' in my studio, but that's probably just me or the fact that I am at heart I am a guitarist and I like to bash and twist things!

I have also bought a lot of hardware towards the same purpose. Some fulfilled it, and some didn't. Push was one of the did not's. Too many buttons presses, button combos, tabbing and navigating, which results in more time looking at a screen... just a smaller, less capable one.

For simple, fast, fun... Garageband, Drambo and Borderlands on my iPad Pro wins easily.

[SLiC]

For simple, fast, fun... Garageband, Drambo and Borderlands on my iPad Pro wins easily.

Drambo we can agree on

[pdxindy]

For simple, fast, fun... Garageband, Drambo and Borderlands on my iPad Pro wins easily.

Drambo we can agree on

If I were to be enticed away from Bitwig, it isn't Live that I find enticing... it's Logic. Now with Logic having Live Loops, I can trigger Loops on the iPad and it is faster to navigate than something like Push... just a swipe scrolls tracks and/or scenes and there is better visual info/feedback. And because Logic has track alternatives, you can record your 'performance' into Arrangement, create a track alternative and record a separate 'performance' into Arrangement.

[apoclypse]

For simple, fast, fun... Garageband, Drambo and Borderlands on my iPad Pro wins easily.

Drambo we can agree on

If I were to be enticed away from Bitwig, it isn't Live that I find enticing... it's Logic. Now with Logic having Live Loops, I can trigger Loops on the iPad and it is faster to navigate than something like Push... just a swipe scrolls tracks and/or scenes and there is better visual info/feedback. And because Logic has track alternatives, you can record your 'performance' into Arrangement, create a track alternative and record a separate 'performance' into Arrangement.

The integration with the iPad is nice but I wouldn't go as far as claiming its faster than PUSH2 and Ableton. You can't really do half the things that you can on Push with the Logic Remote app. It's nice to have in addition to Logic but let's not get ahead of ourselves, it's a pretty clunky app to use imo. It's not even as good as something like Touch.able. Logic just doesn't expose that level of integration (wave displays etc) to remote controllers. If/when Apple gets around to it it will be pretty slick but for now if you think you are getting Push like integration, not happening.

I no longer own a Push but Ableton did a hell of a job with the integration and laying the groundwork on their end to make it work the way it does. That's not to say Logic Remote doesn't have some cool things going for it but better than Push? Nah.

[pdxindy]

The integration with the iPad is nice but I wouldn't go as far as claiming its faster than PUSH2 and Ableton. You can't really do half the things that you can on Push with the Logic Remote app. It's nice to have in addition to Logic but let's not get ahead of ourselves, it's a pretty clunky app to use imo.

Of course you are welcome to have your own point of view on the matter.

I've owned both. Triggering clips in Logic with Logic Remote is faster and more informative (which was my claim). The grid on my iPad Pro is 10 x 14... Push is 8x8 so Logic Remote shows twice as many clips slots at once. Navigating outside the visible area is faster and more hands on cause you can just swipe. I can swipe down through the tracks with 1 finger and as I'm swiping down, I can be triggering new clips that weren't visible before.

The clip display is more informative. I can see if they are audio clips, or midi clips, how long they are and what data is in them. I used to get misplaced sometimes in Push... and have to think where I am. Doesn't happen in LR because it is more visually .

Logic Remote has a mixer view. 12 tracks visible at once with nice big multi-touch faders. Showing the FX, the Logic EQ is visual on the screen. No paging needed, all parameters right there.

Logic Remote doesn't have the learn function for the Sequencer, so that has to be done in Logic directly. But once done, it really fast to create patterns in the sequencer. And unlike Push, the overview is great. I can set it to velocity and draw velocity curves across all lanes in seconds. Push has some advantages too, but the visual display is just so much friendlier and shows so much more info. With Push, if I didn't use it for a month, I was already forgetting how to do stuff. Logic Remote, even the first time I used it, took me like 15 minutes to know how to do everything because it is visual.

[SLiC]

Its easier to trigger of the QWERTY keyboard if all you want to do is launch clips, live was built for that.

There are dozens of clip launchers and remote controls for Live on the iPad and for Studio One and even my Behringer X32! I also have a MS Surface touch screen (I bought that for Bitwig) and it turns out I don't like or use any them or use them in my studio.

A virtual controller controlling virtual instruments just didn't work for me! I like real 'twisty' knobs on my synths and real faders on my mixer, I'm old fashion! I also want my controllers to be at least velocity sensitive and ideally with at least poly AT...maybe when touch screens have velocity and pressure sensitive and haptic feedback is improved I will revisit, but not now.

I am a tech enthusiast and have tried just about everything, I even have Hive VR and have tried using VR instruments and mixing...its all fun, but ultimately unsatisfying for me at this time...PUSH2 with Live works for me, I am happy with that