Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
anttimaatteri
KVRist
344 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:25 am

i use all of them, just to piss off others. its sadism ;D

lastmessiah
KVRist
110 posts since 23 Aug, 2017

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:34 am

A lot of people seem to regard a DAW as merely a digital tape recorder. This is an anachronistic and antiquated way of thinking. A DAW to me is an instrument in itself, and I appreciate when developers build them this way. That is why I use Bitwig and Tracktion Waveform - not as "multiple DAWs" but as multiple instruments. It is also why I prefer them to Pro Tools/Cubase/Logic, as these applications seem stuck in that old tape recorder mindset in a lot of ways.

DAW applications that operate like instruments also make plug-ins largely redundant and unnecessary. I really don't understand why someone would buy something like Ableton Suite only to load plug-in instruments. Really missing the point.

Daimonicon
KVRian
1025 posts since 30 Aug, 2012 from Sweden

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:00 pm

I don't use multiple DAWs. Have you seen pro's using multiple DAWs? Of course not. They learn how to use the DAW in side out and how to work around things to get the job done. The same is true with effects and vst synths. Instead of learn a synth in side out most amateur open their wallet and press yes on the paypal button and purchase another vst synth.

chk071
KVRAF
24056 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:22 pm

anttimaatteri wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:25 am
i use all of them, just to piss off others. its sadism ;D
Rather masochism.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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BONES
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9780 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:27 pm

WasteLand wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:36 am
yes cubase is great, my main daw. but for pattern based projects i go to ableton or maschine
What is a "pattern-based project"? Obviously I understand what you mean but I don't see what makes it a distinct necessity to the degree that you can't use clips in Cubase for pattern-based arrangements. I pretty much use Cubase exactly the same way I used to work in Orion, which is completely pattern based. i.e. I make a few clips - verse and chorus for multiple instruments - then I make an arrangement out of them, adding extra clips for variation and other needs as they arise.
how does that work, they complement eachother, listen to my music and see where it is made in....
How do I see that? I listened to a few things and it all sounds very dated, like late 80s/early 90s Belgian Electro-Industrial bands like Klinik or Vomito Negro. Better production but that old-school vibe.
the same plugins or effects, in other DAW, with another worklfow... also gives other results..
That has been a big struggle for us - nothing sounds as good as the stock generators and effects from Orion. I've spent a grand or more trying to find plugins that are as good as the stock stuff in Orion.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Vacuum Pro, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Union, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

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9780 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:03 pm

BezO wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:36 am
How is it semantics if it's actually 2 completely different things?
Because what Logic calls "Stereo Balance" is what every other host calls "Pan" and the other thing has a different name. It was different terminology is all. Your inability/unwillingness to describe it successfully made it a chore to work out. The fact you felt it was a deal-breaker when it's never come up for me in 38 years of production didn't help, either. I always knew it was there, I've just never had reason to use it and didn't make the connection.
lastmessiah wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:34 am
A lot of people seem to regard a DAW as merely a digital tape recorder. This is an anachronistic and antiquated way of thinking.
A lot of people, and I mean everyone not making obscure genres of dance music, only require a "digital tape recorder", which makes it a perfectly valid way of thinking.
A DAW to me is an instrument in itself, and I appreciate when developers build them this way. That is why I use Bitwig and Tracktion Waveform - not as "multiple DAWs" but as multiple instruments.
That is why I was really glad I got out of Bitwig and didn't like Waveform at all. I need a host that gets out of my way, not one that keeps putting up obstacles for me to negotiate.
It is also why I prefer them to Pro Tools/Cubase/Logic, as these applications seem stuck in that old tape recorder mindset in a lot of ways.
If you think that, it's because you don't know them very well.
DAW applications that operate like instruments also make plug-ins largely redundant and unnecessary. I really don't understand why someone would buy something like Ableton Suite only to load plug-in instruments. Really missing the point.
I think if anyone is missing the point, it's you. None of the native stuff in Ableton has anywhere near the sound quality of the best plugins. To suggest otherwise just demonstrates your ignorance. How, for example, would I go about replicating the things I can get out of NOVO Essentials (Kontakt instrument) in Live? Just to help you along, here are some demos of it. Most sound like they are only using a few instances of it - https://soundcloud.com/heavyocitymedia/ ... essentials
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Vacuum Pro, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Union, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

lastmessiah
KVRist
110 posts since 23 Aug, 2017

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:08 pm

None of the native stuff in Ableton has anywhere near the sound quality of the best plugins.
This is utterly false. How are you measuring sound quality? Show me the numbers that prove it.

And Kontakt is a rompler that plays back samples. The only reason Kontakt is necessary is because of the proprietary format of the samples. It has nothing to do with sound quality and there's no black magic going on behind the scenes.

machinesworking
KVRAF
2327 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:20 pm

BONES wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:03 pm
I think if anyone is missing the point, it's you. None of the native stuff in Ableton has anywhere near the sound quality of the best plugins. To suggest otherwise just demonstrates your ignorance. How, for example, would I go about replicating the things I can get out of NOVO Essentials (Kontakt instrument) in Live? Just to help you along, here are some demos of it. Most sound like they are only using a few instances of it - https://soundcloud.com/heavyocitymedia/ ... essentials
I don't agree with his point, but the NOVA essentials pack could be replicated in Live Suite, it comes with a string library, convolution reverb, plus Max 4 Live. You wouldn't really need M4L for the sound of NOVA.

I don't really get Heavyocity in general, everything they do is drenched in reverb, at the sample level. :shrug:

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9780 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:34 pm

It could be but it would require in the order of hundreds of hours of technical, boring, inspiration-killing work, I assure you. If you haven't demo'd it, I would highly recommend it. At least take the time to suss out what it has to offer.

NOVO isn't "drenched in reverb", it's recorded on a sound stage and you get to mix between the close and room mics to get as much or as little of that ambience as you want. You can always add more later, as the three instruments have plenty of on-board effects.
Daimonicon wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:00 pm
I don't use multiple DAWs. Have you seen pro's using multiple DAWs? Of course not. They learn how to use the DAW in side out and how to work around things to get the job done.
I'm not sure how true that is. I think it's more likely they are too busy to bother seeing what else is out there and have the skills to make whatever they are using work for them.
The same is true with effects and vst synths. Instead of learn a synth in side out most amateur open their wallet and press yes on the paypal button and purchase another vst synth.
That's a very pragmatic, workmanlike way of seeing things. Creative people need something a bit more than that. Yes, I could almost certainly get by with just a handful of plugins but the reality is that playing around with one synth may lead me in a different direction to another at an important time in the overall process. By the time it might matter which host I am using, that definitely isn't as big a consideration but when you are searching for inspiration, it's nice to be surrounded by inspirational instruments, especially ones that work in different ways.
lastmessiah wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:08 pm
And Kontakt is a rompler that plays back samples. The only reason Kontakt is necessary is because of the proprietary format of the samples. It has nothing to do with sound quality and there's no black magic going on behind the scenes.
See, nothing but ignorance. Kontakt is a framework within which developers are free to create their own instruments. Yes, they are sample-based but if you think that's all they are, then you are a fool. Again, I'd commend you to download the free Kontakt player and the NOVO Essentials demo and see just what it's capable of. To give you a clue, listen to the first demo tune in the link. The bassline that comes in at 1:03 is almost certainly coming out of NOVO as well, using the string samples and the features of one of the three included instruments to create a bassline. Same with all the other synth sounds in the piece, all made from the recordings of an orchestra. And that's just one example, you can then go and compare it to Output's Substance or NI's Straylight to see just how diverse the possibilities are.

The beauty of it is that each of those instruments is built around an idea - strings, bass and ambient/drone effects, so the whole thing is tailored to that end. No need to waste hundreds of hours trying to put it all together for yourself - all the boring, technical side of it is taken care of so you can concentrate on being creative and, to be completely honest, no other instruments in my ever-growing arsenal spark my creativity anywhere near as much as those three Kontakt instruments do.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Vacuum Pro, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Union, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

jonljacobi
KVRian
1460 posts since 16 Jan, 2013 from USA

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:35 pm

lastmessiah wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:34 am
A lot of people seem to regard a DAW as merely a digital tape recorder. This is an anachronistic and antiquated way of thinking. A DAW to me is an instrument in itself, and I appreciate when developers build them this way. That is why I use Bitwig and Tracktion Waveform - not as "multiple DAWs" but as multiple instruments. It is also why I prefer them to Pro Tools/Cubase/Logic, as these applications seem stuck in that old tape recorder mindset in a lot of ways.

DAW applications that operate like instruments also make plug-ins largely redundant and unnecessary. I really don't understand why someone would buy something like Ableton Suite only to load plug-in instruments. Really missing the point.
Just because you don't indulge in a particular usage scenario doesn't make a DAW antiquated, or anachronistic in thinking. The most highly skilled and creative musicians and engineers in the world use DAWs as digital tape recorders. You might try advocating your point of view without crapping on them and everyone else.

Meffy
Skunk Mod
21314 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Pony Pasture

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:31 pm

The post that was just after jonljacobi's (which is within the rules) and before this one has been deleted, and a warning issued.

A reminder:
Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will result in your post being edited / deleted, and you may be issued with a warning and / or a ban.
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WasteLand
KVRian
629 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:00 am

BONES wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:27 pm
WasteLand wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:36 am
yes cubase is great, my main daw. but for pattern based projects i go to ableton or maschine
What is a "pattern-based project"? Obviously I understand what you mean but I don't see what makes it a distinct necessity to the degree that you can't use clips in Cubase for pattern-based arrangements. I pretty much use Cubase exactly the same way I used to work in Orion, which is completely pattern based. i.e. I make a few clips - verse and chorus for multiple instruments - then I make an arrangement out of them, adding extra clips for variation and other needs as they arise.
how does that work, they complement eachother, listen to my music and see where it is made in....
How do I see that? I listened to a few things and it all sounds very dated, like late 80s/early 90s Belgian Electro-Industrial bands like Klinik or Vomito Negro. Better production but that old-school vibe.
the same plugins or effects, in other DAW, with another worklfow... also gives other results..
That has been a big struggle for us - nothing sounds as good as the stock generators and effects from Orion. I've spent a grand or more trying to find plugins that are as good as the stock stuff in Orion.
i have the push 2, it is great to work with samples in simpler, with the session view. making patterns, adjusting them. create variants. one more tracks, you can very simple, hear how it works.

yes it can be done in cubase, my latest project in cubase, is with events, and the "same" workflow, as pattern based. but it i feels different. it is different.

and my bad, i thought, i guess that you heard the "unseen rose", "totem und tabu" and "hyperventilor", the last one is fully made in cubase, if i remember correctly, with my own from field recordings, drumkit for the spark 2.x (also have a controller for the spark the old one).
"totem und tabu" is also fully cubase.
the "unseen rose" is made in maschine, except the vocals. fully sample based, own home brewed samples, how i used maschine, also with 2 controllers, has made this song. that is what i mean.

ow, with my bad.. i meant; in the description i do no that say what i have used. i normally do, or do that for 2 years or so.. strange.. sometimes i forget..

but again why defend myself.

old skool! yeah! belgian? mmmh, never heard a belgian say that, but the what the heck belgian bands are great. very dated, taste me thinks, i have a small fanbase. i do not much for exposure, but my style is very recognizable.. but if you don't like, you don't like it. it is that simple.

and i never mention, i repeat; that i have to have more daw's. i am a controller freak. that's i bought first maschine mk3 (and the jam), and a year later the push 2.

i can control cubase with 4 controllers, so no problems there, either. deep integration, by, a combination of controllers.

and the unseen rose, is made with the sample possibilities, and the built-in effects of maschine. a workflow that suits me.

can i all do it in cubase? i am apprentice... not a master... i learned a lot of working maschine and ableton.. and of course cubase...

you have a "love" for orion. i don't know orion. the built-effects of maschine, that i also can use via guitar rig, or their other plugins, but it is nice to have them in one view, focusing on sounddesign, building a song.
the devices in ableton, you can say i have better third party plugins, but they have their own sound, and they work for me. and grouping in ableton.... that is not possible in cubase.

if had to sell, i would sell ableton first. haha. not that it isn't good, i work with great pleasure with it. and i will miss some capabilities, that i use a lot.

cubase is what i am used, for years.

perhaps it is interesting that each has their own workflow, jumping around in sample editors, standalone programs (of plugins), re-sample, "mangle", experiment. etc. etc. that is the way i love it.

that you don't like it, i stay reasonable, it is not your loss. also not my loss. what you are trying to achieve? that saying: you use other daw's, while you have cubase? don't do that.

o well. i have pleasure in making music, with the stuff i have. simple as that. why can it cause problems for others???

EDIT: i have also harrison mixbus 5.......
win 10 pro (1909); cubase 10.5.12 pro, live 10 suite (+push 2), reaper, arturia V collection 7, reason 11 suite, maschine (mk3+jam), korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM and many more..
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

dellboy
KVRian
1232 posts since 28 Mar, 2007

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:29 am

lastmessiah wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:34 am
A lot of people seem to regard a DAW as merely a digital tape recorder. This is an anachronistic and antiquated way of thinking. A DAW to me is an instrument in itself, and I appreciate when developers build them this way. That is why I use Bitwig and Tracktion Waveform - not as "multiple DAWs" but as multiple instruments. It is also why I prefer them to Pro Tools/Cubase/Logic, as these applications seem stuck in that old tape recorder mindset in a lot of ways.

DAW applications that operate like instruments also make plug-ins largely redundant and unnecessary. I really don't understand why someone would buy something like Ableton Suite only to load plug-in instruments. Really missing the point.
Bitwig has morphed into an instrument that can also record.

Fine if thats the way they want to be seen and restrict its use to the electronica\EDM genre which is a small niche market compared to the much bigger world of music in general.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9780 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:46 am

Yeah, I bought Bitwig a few years ago and the more I got into it, the more I felt it wasn't made for me or the way I work and the less I believed any of the things I didn't like about it might be addressed. I sold it a while before v3 was released but that just confirmed to me that it was never going to be what I needed.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Vacuum Pro, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Phase Plant, Pigments, Union, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

dellboy
KVRian
1232 posts since 28 Mar, 2007

Re: Why you use multiple DAWs ?

Post Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:12 am

BONES wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:46 am
Yeah, I bought Bitwig a few years ago and the more I got into it, the more I felt it wasn't made for me or the way I work and the less I believed any of the things I didn't like about it might be addressed. I sold it a while before v3 was released but that just confirmed to me that it was never going to be what I needed.
I have demoed it a lot but found Ableton Live to be easier and quicker for pattern based music for some odd reason.

And at the end of the day I can do everthing just as quick in Cubase as either of those two.

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