Live 11!

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRAF
1909 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed May 12, 2021 6:19 am

PieBerger wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:10 am
WasteLand wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 am
have both, any discussion or arguments, live - bitwig, bitwig - live, live - bitwig, bitwig - live, live - bitwig, bitwig - live, etc. will not affect you.
so calming, to have and ableton live 11 suite and bitwig studio 3.3.7.

i read the posts zen-like. kra axis os sancrum!
I admire your zen approach, I have both and now it's twice the complaining :lol:

As grumpy as I may get, it's nothing really in the grand scheme of things. I even went back to Live 10 to write a track with a friend who hasn't upgraded and it was fine. It's not my first choice, but if I have to use it, it's not painful/unpleasant/completely devoid of all fun!
:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

i almost fell out of my chair... i wanted to add, only for fun, that you can have discussion with yourself... but it isn't fun, i read...

still funny...

i like both. 11 suite has become for me very experimental playground, sounddesign, it ticks so many boxes, and it works... and bitwig also an experimental playground, different approach...

i don't mind the shortcomings.

although why can't 11 suite, do automation like cubase, R/W, so simple, now i always make mistakes, not anymore by the way, bookmarked a vid... i don't why i always have problems with it, yes grumpy, me too! now no! no!! no!!!

and bitwig, support can't reproduce it, but i know someone with same problem, with the panaroma p1 attached, the engine, when nothing is loaded, new/clean project, stays at 15% (in my case). always have to reload...

no! no!! no!!!

:dog: :scared: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

deep breathing... o well i can get grumpy at every DAW i have... that is why, i am glad that go to another one, to cool off...

but in the end, almost never grumpy, all in a flow, from standalone programs to a DAW, mangle it, export it, to another DAW, or standalone program, etc. etc.

i am again zen-like....
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

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KVRAF
19439 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Wed May 12, 2021 6:42 am

PieBerger wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am
For me personally at least, the basic worfklow stuff is already leagues ahead in Bitwig compared to Live; bounce-in-place, hybrid tracks, properly functioning PDC, multiclip fading (on the same track), container clips for audio events, much better mix console, to name but a few. I'd argue that keeping on top of basic workflow is less of a concern for them because they got ahead early on.
That is how it is for me too. I would not want to give up Bounce-in-Place or audio Container Clips. I also really like the side by side layout of the Clip Launcher and Arrange. And of course the Selector devices and Bitwig's modulation are unmatched.

Perhaps the biggest thing for me though is stability. Live used to crash regularly... daily when working for many hours. I haven't had a full crash in Bitwig in years. A plugin can crash (infrequently), but the project file is safe and I just turn the audio engine back on and keep going.

I have completely lost any concern about losing my work. Sometimes I keep a project open for days and don't bother to save.

I've got Live 11 as backup. I was always happy with Live and I did a lot of good work in it. So if something awful happened like Bitwig being bought out by Microsoft or some such, Live is my fall back.

KVRAF
1725 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Post Wed May 12, 2021 6:49 am

PieBerger wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 pm
Call me grumpy but I'm not all that impressed and I actually feel more validated in my choice to use Bitwig as my main DAW. Shiny toys are cool, but it's all Ableton seem to really be focusing on these last few years and they don't really make up for the core application being somewhat neglected still. To me it smacks of a quantity vs quality mindset, which is great for pulling in new custom "look at how much stuff we're giving you" but it's not conducive to getting work done. Personally, I just want to be able to work faster, more efficiently with the many excellent tools and workflows Live already provides, not be distracted noodling around with the yet another new M4L device.
Live 11 added Comping, one of the most requested workflow features. Live 10 updated Automation workflow in many ways -- and personally I find automation in Live much faster than Bitwig, by far. The max packs you're referencing aren't a part of a major release like 10 or 11, just an additional thing that showed up this week, months after 11 was launched. So what are you talking about, actually? The last two versions have included far more than just "stuff we're giving you."
https://michaelarthurholloway.bandcamp.com/ - Noir-themed Dark Jazz
https://tvhwy.bandcamp.com/releases - classic IDM by TV HWY
www.dwifh.com - old-school industrial music by DEAD WHEN I FOUND HER

KVRAF
3477 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Wed May 12, 2021 7:07 am

And how can someone be distracted by something resting somewhere in a folder... :dog:
Diva - Dune - Omnisphere - Serum - Spire

KVRAF
1909 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Wed May 12, 2021 7:08 am

pdxindy wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:42 am
PieBerger wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am
For me personally at least, the basic worfklow stuff is already leagues ahead in Bitwig compared to Live; bounce-in-place, hybrid tracks, properly functioning PDC, multiclip fading (on the same track), container clips for audio events, much better mix console, to name but a few. I'd argue that keeping on top of basic workflow is less of a concern for them because they got ahead early on.
That is how it is for me too. I would not want to give up Bounce-in-Place or audio Container Clips. I also really like the side by side layout of the Clip Launcher and Arrange. And of course the Selector devices and Bitwig's modulation are unmatched.

Perhaps the biggest thing for me though is stability. Live used to crash regularly... daily when working for many hours. I haven't had a full crash in Bitwig in years. A plugin can crash (infrequently), but the project file is safe and I just turn the audio engine back on and keep going.

I have completely lost any concern about losing my work. Sometimes I keep a project open for days and don't bother to save.

I've got Live 11 as backup. I was always happy with Live and I did a lot of good work in it. So if something awful happened like Bitwig being bought out by Microsoft or some such, Live is my fall back.
i wanted to ask which version of live you have. but i see it now. version 11.

i started with live 10 suite; crashfest. now, it is more stable than bitwig (although the plugin crashes and not the DAW, o well in one instance, the whole DAW became unresponsive, the recovery does not work always smoothly). bitwig is pretty stable, by the way. no crashfest.
live 10 suite, yes, crashfest, but after a time, it was very, very stable. as live 11 suite.

i mean, i have more plugin crashes in bitwig, it can be the sandboxing. or something else..
no crashes, with ableton live 11 suite, yes once, it is solved now. was a problem with plugin installation, and the database of live 11 suite.

it depends on so many factors, it can be system dependent, i have a problem with a plugin, that i only have, in cubase. arturia has done all they could, but no-go. OB-Xa crashes. all other arturia synths, not. why? they even contacted steinberg.

sometimes the mysteries of systems and DAW's...
take me as apple as reed-son as flesh-icon, immediately
shits the wise man. hero and blind. take me as
stick as tongue as dog... Music & Soundscraping

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KVRAF
19439 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Wed May 12, 2021 7:37 am

WasteLand wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:08 am

i wanted to ask which version of live you have. but i see it now. version 11.

i started with live 10 suite; crashfest. now, it is more stable than bitwig (although the plugin crashes and not the DAW, o well in one instance, the whole DAW became unresponsive, the recovery does not work always smoothly). bitwig is pretty stable, by the way. no crashfest.
live 10 suite, yes, crashfest, but after a time, it was very, very stable. as live 11 suite.

i mean, i have more plugin crashes in bitwig, it can be the sandboxing. or something else..
no crashes, with ableton live 11 suite, yes once, it is solved now. was a problem with plugin installation, and the database of live 11 suite.

it depends on so many factors, it can be system dependent, i have a problem with a plugin, that i only have, in cubase. arturia has done all they could, but no-go. OB-Xa crashes. all other arturia synths, not. why? they even contacted steinberg.

sometimes the mysteries of systems and DAW's...
I don't have a lot of plugins... perhaps 30 in total. Maybe in the past 6 months I have twice had a plugin crash in Bitwig when I tried something new. None of my main plugins crash (u-he, Fabfilter, etc.)

But for me, the main point is, a plugin crash is no concern cause the project remains untouched. I feel free to demo some plugin even in the middle of a project. I can find a plugin, install, have it crash and uninstall all without ever having to restart Bitwig. On my main studio computer, Bitwig is always on. I rarely quit the application.

I don't currently have any version of Live installed. I upgraded to Live 11, but I haven't actually tried it so I have no experience with 11. I've heard it is more stable.

KVRist
99 posts since 20 Dec, 2008

Post Wed May 12, 2021 8:27 am

mholloway wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:49 am
PieBerger wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 pm
Call me grumpy but I'm not all that impressed and I actually feel more validated in my choice to use Bitwig as my main DAW. Shiny toys are cool, but it's all Ableton seem to really be focusing on these last few years and they don't really make up for the core application being somewhat neglected still. To me it smacks of a quantity vs quality mindset, which is great for pulling in new custom "look at how much stuff we're giving you" but it's not conducive to getting work done. Personally, I just want to be able to work faster, more efficiently with the many excellent tools and workflows Live already provides, not be distracted noodling around with the yet another new M4L device.
Live 11 added Comping, one of the most requested workflow features. Live 10 updated Automation workflow in many ways -- and personally I find automation in Live much faster than Bitwig, by far. The max packs you're referencing aren't a part of a major release like 10 or 11, just an additional thing that showed up this week, months after 11 was launched. So what are you talking about, actually? The last two versions have included far more than just "stuff we're giving you."

Totally agree. Live's updates have consistently refined their workflow instead of making abrupt changes; there is usually a bunch of small quality improvements in there under the headlines, more so than a lot of companies do.

KVRAF
7698 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Wed May 12, 2021 8:46 am

Yes, and remember the 10.1 update brought a heck of a lot of workflow updates and improvements after the big features had bedded in...I am sure we will see the same with 11.

I am using the Beta 11.05 Beta 2 by the way and its rock solid with a ton of little improvements ... They have really polished 11 and taken on board user feedback, some of these are pretty good changes to improve workflow and this is just a 0.5 release...so it bodes well for 11.1!! . https://www.ableton.com/en/release-notes/live-11-beta/
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

KVRer
5 posts since 20 May, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 9:37 am

Is there a way to replicate note chance or velocity chance in Bitwig? I'm kinda into that feature...

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KVRAF
9356 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Wed May 12, 2021 8:37 pm

zandar wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:37 am
Is there a way to replicate note chance or velocity chance in Bitwig? I'm kinda into that feature...
Not via sequencer directly, but you can use random modulators on Note Filter and Note Velocity to decide if the note goes through or not and what's its velocity respectively.
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
7698 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Wed May 12, 2021 10:48 pm

Interestingly Ableton went the other way, they built chance in the main DAW in a very easy to use and accessible way, then they added it to MAX so that it can be programmed in to anything.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

User avatar
KVRAF
9356 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Wed May 12, 2021 11:13 pm

SLiC wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 10:48 pm
Interestingly Ableton went the other way, they built chance in the main DAW in a very easy to use and accessible way, then they added it to MAX so that it can be programmed in to anything.
Yeah, it seems the integration with Cycling '74 - both on the organisational & code levels - starts to really pay off! It feels like they've interally broke through some barrier that was hindering the progress. I think no one was expecting v11 so soon, but once you see the updates and assess the depth & breadth of the work put in, it's really quite impressive.

Hope we'll see Bitwig breaking through their own 3.4 / 4.0 barrier, soon! ;)
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRian
1209 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Post Wed May 12, 2021 11:16 pm

mholloway wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:49 am
PieBerger wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 pm
Call me grumpy but I'm not all that impressed and I actually feel more validated in my choice to use Bitwig as my main DAW. Shiny toys are cool, but it's all Ableton seem to really be focusing on these last few years and they don't really make up for the core application being somewhat neglected still. To me it smacks of a quantity vs quality mindset, which is great for pulling in new custom "look at how much stuff we're giving you" but it's not conducive to getting work done. Personally, I just want to be able to work faster, more efficiently with the many excellent tools and workflows Live already provides, not be distracted noodling around with the yet another new M4L device.
Live 11 added Comping, one of the most requested workflow features. Live 10 updated Automation workflow in many ways -- and personally I find automation in Live much faster than Bitwig, by far. The max packs you're referencing aren't a part of a major release like 10 or 11, just an additional thing that showed up this week, months after 11 was launched. So what are you talking about, actually? The last two versions have included far more than just "stuff we're giving you."
You are right, I just had my blinkers on because many of the changes weren't that significant to me. The ones I mentioned are (and to other users, if suggestions on the beta forum are anything to go by).
Always Read the Manual!

KVRian
1209 posts since 23 May, 2012 from London

Post Wed May 12, 2021 11:33 pm

WasteLand wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:08 am
pdxindy wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:42 am
PieBerger wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:13 am
For me personally at least, the basic worfklow stuff is already leagues ahead in Bitwig compared to Live; bounce-in-place, hybrid tracks, properly functioning PDC, multiclip fading (on the same track), container clips for audio events, much better mix console, to name but a few. I'd argue that keeping on top of basic workflow is less of a concern for them because they got ahead early on.
That is how it is for me too. I would not want to give up Bounce-in-Place or audio Container Clips. I also really like the side by side layout of the Clip Launcher and Arrange. And of course the Selector devices and Bitwig's modulation are unmatched.

Perhaps the biggest thing for me though is stability. Live used to crash regularly... daily when working for many hours. I haven't had a full crash in Bitwig in years. A plugin can crash (infrequently), but the project file is safe and I just turn the audio engine back on and keep going.

I have completely lost any concern about losing my work. Sometimes I keep a project open for days and don't bother to save.

I've got Live 11 as backup. I was always happy with Live and I did a lot of good work in it. So if something awful happened like Bitwig being bought out by Microsoft or some such, Live is my fall back.
i wanted to ask which version of live you have. but i see it now. version 11.

i started with live 10 suite; crashfest. now, it is more stable than bitwig (although the plugin crashes and not the DAW, o well in one instance, the whole DAW became unresponsive, the recovery does not work always smoothly). bitwig is pretty stable, by the way. no crashfest.
live 10 suite, yes, crashfest, but after a time, it was very, very stable. as live 11 suite.

i mean, i have more plugin crashes in bitwig, it can be the sandboxing. or something else..
no crashes, with ableton live 11 suite, yes once, it is solved now. was a problem with plugin installation, and the database of live 11 suite.

it depends on so many factors, it can be system dependent, i have a problem with a plugin, that i only have, in cubase. arturia has done all they could, but no-go. OB-Xa crashes. all other arturia synths, not. why? they even contacted steinberg.

sometimes the mysteries of systems and DAW's...
Live 10 was and is solid for me, I kept using the beta for it's entire life cycle, until more recently because I wanted to share projects with other non-beta users. I had some crashes, but for a beta it was robust. My experience with the Live 11 beta has also been positive, again I experience some crashes as to be expected, but overall it was robust and the crash recovery worked 100%.

The Live 11 commercial release isn't playing nice on my system though. I lost half a day's work because of a crash that didn't recover; it just completely skipped the process, no recovery, no bug report, nothing. Pretty disappointing and kind of put me off using it. I tried it again last night, opening a project I made in Live 10 I've been working on recently and so many of the channels had problems, it just wasn't worth my time to try and found/fix them. Not the end of the world though; I can just finish the track in 10.

What was your issue with the database in 11 and how did you fix it?
Always Read the Manual!

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KVRAF
3481 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Wed May 12, 2021 11:50 pm

WasteLand wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:50 am
the same here! but work only ITB, and only 6 DAW's (7 if you count Maschine..). use them all, i know before i want something which one i must use. and sometimes devices/RE's, make the decision...
jumping around from DAW to DAW me also like, or programs in between...

:D
I wish I could say the same. I started in Digital Performer, got Reason for it's at the time low CPU using synths etc. rewired in. Switched to Logic for years. Bought Ableton Live around v3, and used it alongside Logic then DP again.Then MPE came along and I'm using Live 10 and DP10 at the time that both don't do MPE without cludge. Get a copy of Logic again and look into Reaper and Bitwig.

I'm now fluid in 6 DAWs as well, but I have to say I would rather just have one to rule them all, or rather be back to one old school DAW and one uninterrupted audio engine DAW. It's looking like DP and Bitwig, but Live is a beast these days. I really really like the MIDI comping. It's just smart as hell to do that. I've never liked Live's navigation though, it always feels slower to do things in Live than Bitwig, Logic etc.

Mostly though, I remember being super fast in Logic, and I'm fast in DP, because I've been on them forever, and messing around with multiple DAWs means i'm average speed in most of them.

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