Alias / Linked / Shared / Pooled Clips - are you using them?

[.jon]

The usefulness of ghost clips is theoretical

It's not, but thanks for your nuanced input.

It is, and thanks for your nuanced input

[antic604]

It is, and thanks for your nuanced input

How is it useless, though?

If you want to quickly sketch your song you can re-use the same elements throughout the arrangement and quickly alter all of them without having to find the duplicates to update. And once you're done with that rough draft, you can make them all unique and start making variations.

[enroe]

The concept of alias / linked / shared / pooled clips is that when you make duplicate(s) of a clip and change content of one of them, then all of them will update. So for instance if you have a drum part that's playing in different segments of your song, you can use that feature to have all the instances linked, which makes adding a hi-hat or changing a velocity on snare super easy. Obviously, whenever you want to make a variation you can easily remove certain clip(s) from the pool, so that they're edited individually.

Is it a feature that plays significant role in your workflow?

Well, yes ...

... I think this ability to have referential sections is essential
for any type of music composition.

Since the very beginning music always has consisted of
repetitions. Any arbitrary string of notes is actually not perceived
as music. Only when certain sections are repeated does a
melody become recognizable; this is the process in which music
is created. Johann Sebastian Bach allowed the art of composing,
and thus also of repetitions in different variations, to rise to its
peak.

Unless you compose Free Jazz, repetitive structures play
a prominent role if you compose music. Whether you
create "classic", "drum'n bass", "EDM", "Pop" or "Rock" -
repeating parts are most important. They define the character of
a track. And of course - one capital function of a DAW is to
facilitate these "repetitive structures" of a song.

"Referential sections" are those that are the same everywhere
and to which only a "pointer" points. These referential sections
have different names in the different DAWs:

Apple Logic: alias folder, alias clips
Cubase: shared parts
Reaper: pooled items
...: ...

Conversely, one can say that a DAW that does not have this type
of support for repetitive parts is at least incomplete, if not totally
incapable.

[xbitz]

^^^ bar graph scores are quite fun to watch for sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

Vivaldi ones are espiacially brilliants
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqe0GdU ... 3D&index=8
phrases phrases and more phrases

[melomood]

I think 'totally incapable' is a stretch in a world where musicians have been able to repeat phrases far longer than any DAW has existed

The mere act of allowing you to record on to a timeline with editing functions for further arrangement helps facilitate repetitive structures

[apoclypse]

It is, and thanks for your nuanced input

How is it useless, though?

If you want to quickly sketch your song you can re-use the same elements throughout the arrangement and quickly alter all of them without having to find the duplicates to update. And once you're done with that rough draft, you can make them all unique and start making variations.

But not everyone works that way. So again you are putting forward your workflow as something others should use and people are actively telling you they don't care about it.

Moving and copying data in a DAW isn't some tedious "I need to update this one lamp across all of my scene in a my game engine" kind of complexity. If people feel like copying the data manually isn't that big a deal then I'm not sure how you are going to convince them otherwise.

[pdxindy]

I might've read too much into some of the statements I quoted. And perhaps I'm a bit insecure about not being a "true musician" or - let's face it - any musician at all

Sorry

No worries!

It's not particularly hard to learn a bit of music theory and to practice playing some chords and simple melodies with one hand. My 2 hand playing is crap, but I am decent to good with 1 hand... hence the joys of overdubbing!

Put a little time into it every day, or most days and after a few months you will be seeing some results. Hell, anyone that can learn a number of todays DAW's like you have, can for sure do it. DAW's are harder to learn than music theory!

Cheers...

[machine_spirit]

Started with patterns in Fruity Loops, moved to MIDI clips in Reason, which i prefer now because it makes me think about the whole structure more (it feels like that at least). This link thing you're talking about seems like a headache though IMO, copying and pasting is fast enough, without the additional burden of managing some kind of extra meta-sequencing going on. More tools to use isn't bad though as long as it is optional and doesn't bloat the GUI unless the user wants it.

[pdxindy]

It is, and thanks for your nuanced input

How is it useless, though?

If you want to quickly sketch your song you can re-use the same elements throughout the arrangement and quickly alter all of them without having to find the duplicates to update. And once you're done with that rough draft, you can make them all unique and start making variations.

(I'm not arguing aliased clips are useless... someone else said that)

You mention "you can re-use the same elements throughout the arrangement". So how many times do you actually re-use a clip in a song? If it is a continuous section, you just drag the clip out and loop it to fill the space. So how many non-continuous sections are there? 4-7 maybe?

For that sort of number, I would rather use Bitwig's multi-clip editing... because there is no rigid connection.

Where multi-clip editing is currently deficient, is in selection. So there could be referencing like aliased clips. If I make say 6 duplicates of a clip, the app remembers that they are duplicates. Alt-double click on a clip opens the multi-clip editor with all duplicates listed and selected. Fast and easy to edit. Then, if there is one clip I don't want to change in the group, I can just deselect that one clip and edit the rest... which you cannot do with aliased clips cause they are rigid all or nothing.

Also, because the multi-clip editor would list the duplicates and which ones are selected, I have a visual indicator of it so am less likely to edit by mistake. And if I edit one of those clips separately, I can still edit the whole group together as needed which is again more flexible than aliased clips.

Again, I am not saying aliased clips have no useful aspect. But I think what I am suggesting is more useful... more flexible and less prone to error. You never have the step of having to unlink clips.

[antic604]

You mention "you can re-use the same elements throughout the arrangement". So how many times do you actually re-use a clip in a song? If it is a continuous section, you just drag the clip out and loop it to fill the space. So how many non-continuous sections are there? 4-7 maybe?

For that sort of number, I would rather use Bitwig's multi-clip editing... because there is no rigid connection.

Most, actually. The music I make relies on repeating patterns of different length - from 1/4 note to 4-8 bars - and the main feature that introduces variation and movement is automation, modulation (+ recently operators). I'd say clips repeating just once comprise 20% of clips in my projects.

Where multi-clip editing is currently deficient, is in selection. So there could be referencing like aliased clips. If I make say 6 duplicates of a clip, the app remembers that they are duplicates. Alt-double click on a clip opens the multi-clip editor with all duplicates listed and selected. Fast and easy to edit. Then, if there is one clip I don't want to change in the group, I can just deselect that one clip and edit the rest... which you cannot do with aliased clips cause they are rigid all or nothing.

Also, because the multi-clip editor would list the duplicates and which ones are selected, I have a visual indicator of it so am less likely to edit by mistake. And if I edit one of those clips separately, I can still edit the whole group together as needed which is again more flexible than aliased clips.

Again, I am not saying aliased clips have no useful aspect. But I think what I am suggesting is more useful... more flexible and less prone to error. You never have the step of having to unlink clips.

I like the idea! Actually it effectively sort of resembles what I described few pages back: when you'd click a linked clip for editing all the duplicates would start blinking so that you know you're editing the whole group. We do agree that the implementation is a challenge, indeed.

[Biscotto]

I like the idea!

You’ve finally come to your senses.
When I mentioned the Multi-Editing you were worried that the developers would consider that workaround (which is actually not but a workflow indeed and well implemented in BW) and move on without even considering the Ghost feature.

Welcome back to reason (not the daw )

Btw. Ghost clips or not I’m fine with it.

[Biscotto]

Double post

[machine_spirit]

It's not particularly hard to learn a bit of music theory

I know some of the basics but as soon as people start talking about actual chords that look like mathematical equations etc i'm just lost. So i do everything by ear, which is fine until i want to make more complex chord progressions/harmonies. There's just so many ways to go and every time i play the "wrong" notes it's like my musical memory takes a hit and i have to go back and play the previous chord to know where i was coming from, all while trying to remember where i was going in the first place. This just gets ridiculous with chords of 5 or more notes, i think music theory of that level takes some real effort to grasp. And with the easier stuff you can just go by ear. I think this is where most electronic musicians get stuck.

[xbitz]

^^^ in the EDM world (typically) everybody learns one scale C#minor and map the black keys to white ones and use transposing at the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u86xMoruBa8
(look I was able to remember my random something )

much easier to remember all the inversions, intervals etc. using only one scale during the composing (check the composing part of the https://www.giuseppeottaviani.com/masterclass/ for ex. if you can
it's a great series anyway) and still learn the transposed version at the end can go to the muscle memory which no needs thinking

[antic604]

So i do everything by ear, which is fine until i want to make more complex chord progressions/harmonies. There's just so many ways to go and every time i play the "wrong" notes it's like my musical memory takes a hit and i have to go back and play the previous chord to know where i was coming from, all while trying to remember where i was going in the first place. This just gets ridiculous with chords of 5 or more notes, i think music theory of that level takes some real effort to grasp. And with the easier stuff you can just go by ear. I think this is where most electronic musicians get stuck.

Have you considered something like Captain Plugins or Scaler?

https://mixedinkey.com/captain-plugins/

https://www.scalerplugin.com/