Alias / Linked / Shared / Pooled Clips - are you using them?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

Are you using alias / linked / shared / pooled clips?

Yes, all the time
21
35%
Yes, occasionally
8
13%
No, although my (main) DAW has it
17
28%
No, my (main) DAW does not have it
10
17%
I had no idea there's such a feature
4
7%
 
Total votes: 60

KVRist
229 posts since 26 Sep, 2007

Post Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:29 am

pdxindy wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:48 am
If it is a continuous section, you just drag the clip out and loop it to fill the space. So how many non-continuous sections are there? 4-7 maybe?

For that sort of number, I would rather use Bitwig's multi-clip editing... because there is no rigid connection.
The ergonomics of multi-clip editing aren't really there, though, at least in Bitwig. Editing multiple, layered clips with identical content means that any single-click/drag operation that isn't initiated with a drag-selection (to select all notes from all layered clips) only affects one layer, and you can't create new notes across clips except by duplicating existing ones. I've tried this approach, but it's very clumsy and a far cry from editing a single clip and having other clips just mirror those edits.

Is this (multi-clip editing) solved better in Live, btw? Haven't used it for too long to remember.
Where multi-clip editing is currently deficient, is in selection. So there could be referencing like aliased clips. If I make say 6 duplicates of a clip, the app remembers that they are duplicates. Alt-double click on a clip opens the multi-clip editor with all duplicates listed and selected.
So far, so good. What happens if I change one of those clips, will the app remove it from its remembered list of duplicates? If not, the list of duplicates for most of my clips would be VERY similar to the list of ALL of the clips on any given track. Never underestimate the repetitiveness of some kinds of music. If you make a rap beat and go too crazy with the variations, rappers will complain at you. :lol:
Fast and easy to edit.
Caveats apply, as mentioned above. ;)
Then, if there is one clip I don't want to change in the group, I can just deselect that one clip and edit the rest... which you cannot do with aliased clips cause they are rigid all or nothing.
But with aliased clips you'd just unlink the one clip you don't want to edit – and you'd do that right in context in the arrangement view, not in a detached sidebar where you have you match numbers to find the clip you want to exclude:
Screenshot 2021-08-29 at 11.27.56.png
I don't see the rigidity you mention.
Also, because the multi-clip editor would list the duplicates and which ones are selected, I have a visual indicator of it so am less likely to edit by mistake.
FWIW, I've never personally come across this issue using patterns/aliased clips in practice. Normally when you use aliased clips, you do so consciously and make them work to your advantage. The aliased clips are like the app remembering things for you, and you tell it exactly what to remember. It's probably just different workflows and "creative brains", but when I used FL, I never spent any mental energy "keeping track" of patterns. I just worked with them.
And if I edit one of those clips separately, I can still edit the whole group together as needed which is again more flexible than aliased clips.
That ability could still exist with aliased clips. In general, I find multi-clip editing to be most useful for clips with differing content, as the overlapping notes of almost-identical clips make it really hard to see what's going on.
Again, I am not saying aliased clips have no useful aspect. But I think what I am suggesting is more useful... more flexible and less prone to error. You never have the step of having to unlink clips.
But you do have that step, just in a different place.

In general I think your idea has its merits and could be a starting point for a good solution, even if it doesn't really cover all the aliasing requirements I'd expect. I do appreciate the constructive spirit. :)

I did prefer your earlier suggestion for something more similar to Reason's Blocks, which I hadn't thought of before. They could map really well to Live's/Bitwig's scenes.
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KVRAF
3366 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:30 am

antic604 wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:19 pm
machine_spirit wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:15 pm
So i do everything by ear, which is fine until i want to make more complex chord progressions/harmonies. There's just so many ways to go and every time i play the "wrong" notes it's like my musical memory takes a hit and i have to go back and play the previous chord to know where i was coming from, all while trying to remember where i was going in the first place. This just gets ridiculous with chords of 5 or more notes, i think music theory of that level takes some real effort to grasp. And with the easier stuff you can just go by ear. I think this is where most electronic musicians get stuck.
Have you considered something like Captain Plugins or Scaler?

https://mixedinkey.com/captain-plugins/

https://www.scalerplugin.com/
won't be enough, need some music theory >> https://www.edmprod.com/category/track-breakdown/ just a minimal one
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

User avatar
KVRAF

Topic Starter

10354 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:40 am

xbitz wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:30 am
won't be enough, need some music theory >> https://www.edmprod.com/category/track-breakdown/ just a minimal one
But it's a good start. Like @machine_spirit, my problem is I can hear in my head what kind of progression and I can work it out 1 note at a time, but before I get there I will get distracted by something I'm hearing along the way. A plugin like those can help with getting there faster.
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
74 posts since 10 Aug, 2021

Post Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:30 am

xbitz wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:24 pm
in the EDM world (typically) everybody learns one scale C#minor and map the black keys to white ones and use transposing at the end
antic604 wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:19 pm
Have you considered something like Captain Plugins or Scaler?
That's some great stuff honestly. Problem is i'm afraid i will end up locking myself into some "simple" system that would take additional effort to unlearn, i want to do it "right", but the effort... I already have awkward hand/finger management when playing piano/keyboard, like almost never using some fingers and stuff like that. I've never been super serious about this stuff and taken lessons or anything but over the years the hours starts to add up and it would probably take some gladiator style piano teacher with a whip to fix this :dog: :hihi:
antic604 wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:40 am
But it's a good start. Like @machine_spirit, my problem is I can hear in my head what kind of progression and I can work it out 1 note at a time, but before I get there I will get distracted by something I'm hearing along the way. A plugin like those can help with getting there faster.
Exactly that, one note at a time, sometimes i know where it should go (particularly with the lowest and highest) but often i have to use a mix of MIDI keyboard and piano roll and as i listen to a progression over and over again, all alternative ways the melody could take start to fade away and eventually the entire song i set in stone unless i come back weeks later.

Doesn't help that i watch youtube stuff like Adam Neely where he just pukes out some crazy jazz harmonies with so much depth, with seemingly no effort at all. I mean, one should aim high but remaining realistic is useful :)

KVRAF
3366 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:00 am

^^^ it's not about playing on the piano it's about composing on MIDI keyboards so it's a different topic :)
antic604 wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:40 am
xbitz wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:30 am
won't be enough, need some music theory >> https://www.edmprod.com/category/track-breakdown/ just a minimal one
But it's a good start. Like @machine_spirit, my problem is I can hear in my head what kind of progression and I can work it out 1 note at a time, but before I get there I will get distracted by something I'm hearing along the way. A plugin like those can help with getting there faster.
there is a scale lock in Scaler too (so simple C#minor locking and transposing work here too),
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjixIUnnCTg
i-iv-VI-v progression normal, first-second inversion and compressed into one octave, inversions need to able to compress the progression into one octave (minimal hand movement) and transposed, but not want to hijack the topic :D so just watch both non Logic related courses from this guy https://www.udemy.com/user/lean-musician/ :wink:

ps. "is I can hear in my head what" .... > https://www.soundgym.co/
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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KVRAF
20144 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:45 am

Dionysos wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:29 am
The ergonomics of multi-clip editing aren't really there, though, at least in Bitwig. Editing multiple, layered clips with identical content means that any single-click/drag operation that isn't initiated with a drag-selection (to select all notes from all layered clips) only affects one layer, and you can't create new notes across clips except by duplicating existing ones. I've tried this approach, but it's very clumsy and a far cry from editing a single clip and having other clips just mirror those edits.
Yeah, Multi-clip editing needs a way, with a single click, to add a note to all selected clips. And as you point out, would be handy to have a select drag method which catches all notes underneath.

Do you have something like alt click drag to grab all notes and click drag works like now? Or maybe add a new tool option - multi-select. When that is active then the various tool actions (select, time, pen, erase, knife) act on all selected clips. With a key command to make multi-select momentary or toggle on and off. That sounds promising.

The multi-clip editing needs this anyway, regardless of whether it is integrated with an instancing selection method.
Dionysos wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:29 am
So far, so good. What happens if I change one of those clips, will the app remove it from its remembered list of duplicates? If not, the list of duplicates for most of my clips would be VERY similar to the list of ALL of the clips on any given track. Never underestimate the repetitiveness of some kinds of music. If you make a rap beat and go too crazy with the variations, rappers will complain at you. :lol:
That is why I am pondering something that gives those folks what they want, while also being of use for me instead of being a tool I just ignore cause it doesn't suit my way of working. :)
Dionysos wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:29 am
Then, if there is one clip I don't want to change in the group, I can just deselect that one clip and edit the rest... which you cannot do with aliased clips cause they are rigid all or nothing.
But with aliased clips you'd just unlink the one clip you don't want to edit – and you'd do that right in context in the arrangement view, not in a detached sidebar where you have you match numbers to find the clip you want to exclude:

I don't see the rigidity you mention.
Because once you unlink an alias, you cannot then edit it with the other still linked clips. I called it rigid because it is either 100% linked or 100% not linked instead of a more fluid system that is selection based. Consider group tracks. You can edit any individual track, but you can also go to the group track and lower the level of all of the child tracks. With a track group you are able to take actions that affect the whole group and at the same time are able to take actions that affect an individual within the group.

Selection based clip groups would allow the user to both edit the group (like aliased clips) and still edit individuals at any time (which aliased clips doesn't allow). So I could have say 6 identical clips in the group. Then I can select just one clip, and add the repeat Operator to a few notes and then I can still edit them all together (with the improved multi-clip editing!).
Dionysos wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:29 am
I did prefer your earlier suggestion for something more similar to Reason's Blocks, which I hadn't thought of before. They could map really well to Live's/Bitwig's scenes.
Oh, yeah... something similar to Reason's Blocks would be quite useful! I agree it could map well to Scenes. I would like that regardless of this other stuff.

KVRAF
1631 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany

Post Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:04 am

melomood wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:01 am
I think 'totally incapable' is a stretch in a world where musicians have been able to repeat phrases far longer than any DAW has existed

The mere act of allowing you to record on to a timeline with editing functions for further arrangement helps facilitate repetitive structures
Yes, of course. But we have 2021! :wink:
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs + weird stuff: enroe.de

KVRAF
3366 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:21 pm

xbitz wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:00 am
^^^ it's not about playing on the piano it's about composing on MIDI keyboards so it's a different topic :)
antic604 wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:40 am
xbitz wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:30 am
won't be enough, need some music theory >> https://www.edmprod.com/category/track-breakdown/ just a minimal one
But it's a good start. Like @machine_spirit, my problem is I can hear in my head what kind of progression and I can work it out 1 note at a time, but before I get there I will get distracted by something I'm hearing along the way. A plugin like those can help with getting there faster.
there is a scale lock in Scaler too (so simple C#minor locking and transposing work here too),
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjixIUnnCTg
i-iv-VI-v progression normal, first-second inversion and compressed into one octave, inversions need to able to compress the progression into one octave (minimal hand movement) and transposed, but not want to hijack the topic :D so just watch both non Logic related courses from this guy https://www.udemy.com/user/lean-musician/ :wink:

ps. "is I can hear in my head what" .... > https://www.soundgym.co/
not sound https://www.tonegym.co/ sry :) sound is eq, dynamic etc. tone is about the intervals, chords etc. recognition
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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