Real copy or Ghost copy

Official support for: mutools.com

How to copy parts by default: Real copy or Ghost copy?

Real copy
13
48%
Ghost copy
14
52%
 
Total votes: 27

anubis2010
KVRist
59 posts since 16 Jul, 2009

Post Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:34 am

Hi again,

Just a small point in general.

MULAB's default functionality should be set to suit an experienced user. A newbie may like a function to be swapped in the short term but once he/she has become more proficient with MULAB he/she will find these functionality swaps less efficient. Hopefully we all start as newbies but then progress on to become experienced users and you will need MULAB to grow with you.

Be carefull not to dumb down MULAB or experienced users will move on to other products.

If you have used MULAB for a few months you should hopefully begin to see that MULAB does seem to work differently to your average DAW. The more you use it you then realise its work flow is better that a lot of other popular DAWs.

The default ghost copy does take some getting use to in the short term, but once you see the power of MULAB you realise that the ghost copy is certainly one of the best features.

anubis2010

liquidsound
KVRAF
2941 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:26 am

I love the way it is now with ghost as a default.
I find it very easy to un-ghost anything I need but some ideas here are also no so bad as in the Visual Color Feedback.
Another way could be "Real" with an option of Ctrl(or Shift)+Multiple parts anywhere in the sequencer and turn them into "Ghost" of the first selected one.
Anyway, a Preference Set-Up could solve many conflicts and not only on this issue but in many other areas to accommodate at least major groups of users and their styles.
(Edited)
MuLab.Ableton.Diva.Zebra.Repro-1.Dune2.The Legend.ArcSyn.Spire.TAL

User avatar
audiobot202
KVRian
1137 posts since 24 Dec, 2004 from Adelaide, South Australia

Post Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:47 pm

No...Mulab's philosophy is to appeal to newbie users primarily and so should be as intuitive as possible. You clearly infer that Ghost copying is counter intuitive to new users, therefore, Real copying should be set to default.

There is one easy way to get around all of this argument. Why not re-name the copying process to 'clone' and 'copy' (which is more intuitive, since 'real' and 'ghost' actually require long winded explanation) and simply make it a clearly labelled preference. Toss away the arcane shortcuts altogether, go back to the Windows standard Ctrl C + V (as well as an easy mouse behaviour) and just make it a clearly labelled preference either on the GUI, or in preferences to make one copy type default?

We need to get the opinion of newbie users or people who have never used MUlab before, not people who are used to the paradigm already, otherwise this poll is not useful to Jo.

I have used MUlab a few times, but I hate the copying process. I use lots of programs, but I always forget the way MUlab copying works and get confused by the nomenclature. To me, it's counter intuitive and as a user of other programs that are more in line with the expectations of new users, MUlab is clearly bucking the trend. So, if you want to appeal to newbies, either change it or make it a lot easier to understand.

I even had to ask Jo how to make a so called 'Real' copy in the forums here. That's how un intuitive the behaviour is. And given the lack of deep documentation, unlike other products, I would try to make it as simple as possible, with the clearest naming conventions and the easiest pathways to understanding.

The mere fact that Jo has to put up this poll means that there is confusion around the issue. So, given all of this, it needs to be changed.

Steve

anubis2010 wrote:Hi again,

Just a small point in general.

MULAB's default functionality should be set to suit an experienced user. A newbie may like a function to be swapped in the short term but once he/she has become more proficient with MULAB he/she will find these functionality swaps less efficient. Hopefully we all start as newbies but then progress on to become experienced users and you will need MULAB to grow with you.

Be carefull not to dumb down MULAB or experienced users will move on to other products.

If you have used MULAB for a few months you should hopefully begin to see that MULAB does seem to work differently to your average DAW. The more you use it you then realise its work flow is better that a lot of other popular DAWs.

The default ghost copy does take some getting use to in the short term, but once you see the power of MULAB you realise that the ghost copy is certainly one of the best features.

anubis2010

paulhart
KVRist
53 posts since 13 Jun, 2009 from San Diego

Post Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:18 pm

As a definite "noobie" to audio editing, I want to agree with audiobot202, making MuLab intuitive is "flavored" by users previous experience. Ctrl C and Ctrl V are widely used standards. Since I am newer to this field, let me share... I was just working on a logo for a client (graphic design pays the bills) and in several programs Alt/Click/Drag creates a Copy. Creating a Clone is always more elaborate particularly in 3D programs, because of the intentionality of having the new duplicate retain a relationship with it's source is very different than wanting a quick copy to play with. I was unaware of the "Ghost" (poor term) aspect as I quickly adopted the Ctrl/Click/Drag to make copies, since it wasn't that far away from known key patterns. I only belatedly learned of my error, not a big deal, but unexpected. Ctrl/Shift/Click/Drag would be different enough to prompt attention, but not so far for seasoned users, but the simpler choice helps new users. I found MuLabs to be very accessible for the new user, played with the Share version until I decided that my animation project was worthy of paying for the Licensed version. Since it was initially free, accessible I started with it and upgraded. I try to support Open Source, Share/Pay software when I find them useful to encourage development, and this being one of those choices. As a seasoned user of many other programs, I can shift when necessary changes arrive, but when learning new programs, similarity to other key patterns helps bridge the learning curve.
Paul

User avatar
audiobot202
KVRian
1137 posts since 24 Dec, 2004 from Adelaide, South Australia

Post Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:56 pm

paulhart wrote:As a definite "noobie" to audio editing, I want to agree with audiobot202, making MuLab intuitive is "flavored" by users previous experience. Ctrl C and Ctrl V are widely used standards. Since I am newer to this field, let me share... I was just working on a logo for a client (graphic design pays the bills) and in several programs Alt/Click/Drag creates a Copy. Creating a Clone is always more elaborate particularly in 3D programs, because of the intentionality of having the new duplicate retain a relationship with it's source is very different than wanting a quick copy to play with. I was unaware of the "Ghost" (poor term) aspect as I quickly adopted the Ctrl/Click/Drag to make copies, since it wasn't that far away from known key patterns. I only belatedly learned of my error, not a big deal, but unexpected. Ctrl/Shift/Click/Drag would be different enough to prompt attention, but not so far for seasoned users, but the simpler choice helps new users. I found MuLabs to be very accessible for the new user, played with the Share version until I decided that my animation project was worthy of paying for the Licensed version. Since it was initially free, accessible I started with it and upgraded. I try to support Open Source, Share/Pay software when I find them useful to encourage development, and this being one of those choices. As a seasoned user of many other programs, I can shift when necessary changes arrive, but when learning new programs, similarity to other key patterns helps bridge the learning curve.
Paul
Well said. If you want intuitive behaviour, you actually need to go with expected patterns in design.

anubis2010
KVRist
59 posts since 16 Jul, 2009

Post Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:47 pm

Hi Jo,

417 views and still only 19 votes, roughtly split.

There seems to be a lot of issues being talked about here, Jo you may need to comment again on what you want from this poll.

1) Swap ghost copy to real as default, or not. (main issue of poll).

2) Rename ghost to clone and real to copy or similar.

3) Preferences sheet to allow users to toggle the behaviour.

4) Colour change for ghost copies.

Just to get the poll back on track, Jo please can you comment on the 4 points above and let us all know what you are willing to change and what you do not wish to change if needed etc.

It is clear from the comments so far on this poll that the ghost/real functionality does need some clarity for some users and some kind of further work/programming done on it.

anubis2010 :)

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:36 am

anubis2010 wrote:MULAB's default functionality should be set to suit an experienced user.
I'm sorry but i disagree here.

It's the explicit challenge of MU.LAB to be as easy as possible, especially to newbie users. At the same time i do want to serve more demanding users to by offering deeper levels of functionality. But these deeper functionalities may never be in the way of a happy first time experience.
The default ghost copy does take some getting use to in the short term
I agree with the others that this is a reason to not make it the default.
but once you see the power of MULAB you realise that the ghost copy is certainly one of the best features.
And it will always be possible to use it in MU.LAB :)

In 'worst' case, you may have to also push [Shift] when doing [Cntrl]+drag.
That would not be a high price i think.

And i'm having the feeling that things would be more in balance that way.

But still reading and digesting all your opinions.

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:41 am

liquidsound wrote:Anyway, a Preference Set-Up could solve many conflicts and not only on this issue but in many other areas to accommodate at least major groups of users and their styles.
The problem with using preferences for too many things is that setting up the application becomes very complex and unpleasant, which is the contrary of MU.LAB's goal.

I try to avoid preferences by doing a good case study and then make a good decission. If this is done well, the app is easier to use than when a preference would have been added.

I agree that in some case a preference is the best solution though.
But this is no such case, imho.

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:49 am

audiobot202 wrote:Why not re-name the copying process to 'clone' and 'copy' (which is more intuitive, since 'real' and 'ghost' actually require long winded explanation)
Yes, maybe it could have better naming.

Copy (real) and Clone (ghost) sounds ok to me. Feel free to suggest more.
Toss away the arcane shortcuts altogether, go back to the Windows standard Ctrl C + V
These key shortcuts are active!

It's about the mouse part.
as well as an easy mouse behaviour
Yep, that's what it is all about.
I even had to ask Jo how to make a so called 'Real' copy in the forums here.
Yes, i remember, and you were not the only one.
That's also why i thought to put the topic on the table.
And given the lack of deep documentation
The [Cntrl]+drag and [Shift][Cntrl]+drag are explained in the docs:

http://www.mutools.com/mulab/docs/composer.html

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:57 am

anubis2010 wrote:1) Swap ghost copy to real as default, or not. (main issue of poll)
Yes, that's the main topic.
2) Rename ghost to clone and real to copy or similar.
I'm open to renaming these functions. Copy & Clone sounds good to me, but if you think of something even better...

We may also need a better name for the "Duplicate Sequence" function, which can turn a cloned sequence part into a unique sequence part. But it can also be applied to a unique sequence part as well, e.g. if you want to edit it but still want to preserve the original version. So the function name should be independent from the clone aspect.
3) Preferences sheet to allow users to toggle the behaviour.
I'm not enthusiast for installing a preference for this.
4) Colour change for ghost copies.
Yes, that wil certainly help too in making things clear for the user.

Practically: It won't be a colour change but rather a change in the contour of the part. But i agree it should be more explicit than now.
Just to get the poll back on track, Jo please can you comment on the 4 points above and let us all know what you are willing to change and what you do not wish to change if needed etc.
It's all related to eachother, i think. So feel free to continue adding your relevant opinions.
Last edited by mutools on Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

anubis2010
KVRist
59 posts since 16 Jul, 2009

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:59 am

Hi Jo

OK, if MULAB should be as easy to use as possible for newbies. Then real copy should be default.

Jo, I think you have now answered your own poll question.

Thanks for all the newbies posting comments about how they feel. I too found it a hard concept when I first started with MULAB, but as I got to see how ghost copy works I much prefer ghost as default.

If ever there was a need for a preference list this would be right at the top.

I feel that you will always have trouble with issues like this unless you do created a preference/option tick box solution.

I will now but out of this poll. For the sake of the newbies concider my vote reversed to REAL COPY.

anubis2010 :D

User avatar
audiobot202
KVRian
1137 posts since 24 Dec, 2004 from Adelaide, South Australia

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:59 am

Hi Jo,

So, perhaps as a good middle ground we have possibly the following changes:

- Copy types may be renamed to 'Copy' and 'Clone'. It fits with the way a lto of graphics and other programs work and makes more sense intuitively.
- Stronger use of contrast colour to tell the difference between cloned and copied parts is an excellent point.
- Default may become the newly named 'Copy' functionality, which seems to make sense to new users coming from other programs.
- 'Clone' will still be available as a function either via preferences or another keyboard shortcut.

These changes alone should make understanding it easier for new users and still give experienced users a way to get more expert functionality if necessary.

One idea...what about if you have one easy keyboard/mouse shortcut for all copying and just have a little preference switch visible near the composition window so that the user can quickly switch between 'copy' and 'clone' ?

Regards,
Steve

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:09 am

anubis2010 wrote:OK, if MULAB should be as easy to use as possible for newbies. Then real copy should be default.

Jo, I think you have now answered your own poll question.
I think we're answering the question all together, by laying our opinions near eachother. It's an interesting topic. Thanks for sharing your opinions!
If ever there was a need for a preference list this would be right at the top. I feel that you will always have trouble with issues like this unless you do created a preference/option tick box solution.
I'm confident that if the real/clone copy mouse shortcuts are swapped, you'll be used to it quite quickly, and you'll automatically add the [Shift] almost on unconscious level. The [Shift] is just above the [Cntrl] and so there is no ergonomic difficulty.

Anyway, such change in behaviour won't come before M3; So we'll be able to check things out in practice when M3 goes into test. Then we can still continue talking about it if it would not feel good.

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:14 am

audiobot202 wrote:So, perhaps as a good middle ground we have possibly the following changes:

- Copy types may be renamed to 'Copy' and 'Clone'. It fits with the way a lto of graphics and other programs work and makes more sense intuitively.
- Stronger use of contrast colour to tell the difference between cloned and copied parts is an excellent point.
- Default may become the newly named 'Copy' functionality, which seems to make sense to new users coming from other programs.
- 'Clone' will still be available as a function either via preferences or another keyboard shortcut.
Yes, i agree with this conclusion.
One idea...what about if you have one easy keyboard/mouse shortcut for all copying and just have a little preference switch visible near the composition window so that the user can quickly switch between 'copy' and 'clone'?
I always try to have as few extra graphical elements as possible on the GUI. Unless it's about really basic functionality.

I think that this is about a more advanced feature and so it should not 'bloat' the GUI.

NBV
KVRist
48 posts since 2 Nov, 2005

Post Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:52 am

Ok, get the point. If you want to make mu.lab more accesible to new users, then "real" copy as default is the way to go. Then, the very same philosophy should be applied also to audio parts, and you should consider to make available non-destructive audio editing funcionalities, so you can edit a copy of an audio sequence without altering any other audio part based on the same sample or take. Think about automation curves too.

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