Real copy or Ghost copy

Official support for: mutools.com

How to copy parts by default: Real copy or Ghost copy?

Real copy
13
48%
Ghost copy
14
52%
 
Total votes: 27

liquidsound
KVRAF
2941 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:21 pm

if ain't broken, don't fix it.... :D :wink:
MuLab.Ableton.Diva.Zebra.Repro-1.Dune2.The Legend.ArcSyn.Spire.TAL

User avatar
pljones
KVRAF
6331 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Post Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:04 pm

The question is whether it's broken enough to fix: some new users are surprised that when they make an edit to a part, some other part of their composition also changes. This doesn't seem intuitive. And even I have to say, whilst I think it's better to use Ghost/Clone, it isn't what I'd be expecting as a new-comer... I'm being talked into changing my vote...

liquidsound
KVRAF
2941 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:28 pm

OK, OK
one thing at the time...

A New User (little experienced with DAWs) after one or two surprised results will have to read the manual or ask and that's is the right way to go: Learn to read instructions or ask questions. We are not talking about an amazing technical issue.
I do the same and this attitude helps to keep the program to a level which can accommodate beginners and pros. If we want to be able to support every beginner wish then we support their weakness (here is intended as the usual "I do not read (I have no time for...) Manuals....")

A New User (experienced in the DAW business) needs very little. S/he has two choices: Getting used to this system or cast a vote.

I am not against the little experienced users but I think before s/he can complain s/he should work with MuLab for a while and really see if one thing it's better than the other.

I come from Reason and energyXT. Reason makes a Real copy while energyXT makes a Ghost and since I was coming from Reason I was SURPRISED too when XT made a what??? a Ghost!!!
Well I got surprised once or twice. I did not like it, now I love it!
MuLab.Ableton.Diva.Zebra.Repro-1.Dune2.The Legend.ArcSyn.Spire.TAL

User avatar
pljones
KVRAF
6331 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Post Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:55 pm

But the point is not whether MULAB should do one or other. The point is which should happen as the default action. The other action would be almost as easily available.

anubis2010
KVRist
59 posts since 16 Jul, 2009

Post Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:36 am

Hi All

I did say that I would no longer comment on the poll but after seeing the latest comments from liquidsound and pljones I thought I would say one last thing on this subject. I am glad that it is not just me that likes ghost as default.

As an experienced user and owner of many DAWs I find I always keep coming back to MULAB as the go to DAW when I need to get a music idea done quickly.

I think MULAB is pure genuis and I just can't wait for M3.

I still think ghost should be default once the user gets experience over a few months.

BUT!

MULAB is a commercial product and needs funding to survive, the newbies bring new money to the project. Like in all walks of life people make their minds up so quickly for example a house is bought or not within the first 30 seconds of seeing it. The same kind of thing happens when newbies are checking out DAWs, if he or she can not get used to it quickly they tend to move on to try other shareware/freeware DAWs.

It is really this reason why I changed my vote to REAL copy as default, I want MULAB to survive I want Jo to survive so that we all can enjoy MULAB for many years to come.

If it were a perfect world I would like real as default for the sake of newbies and the option to toggle to ghost for all the other users that like it that way.

Jo does not seem to like perferences as I assume it makes the programming even more complicated. Although I would like preferences in MULAB I respect that Jo does not want to go down this route yet.

This poll is obviously a mixed feeling one and at the end of the day like all decisions some one needs to make one and that sits firmly with Jo.

On this poll no one is right and no one is wrong.

For commercial reasons, which is very important, real should be default to increase MULABs newbies user base and hopefully this will benefit us all in the long term.

Jo said it should be made easy for newbies and as an experienced user of DAWs I can adjust my style if I need to, even if it is reluctantly.

anubis2010





:D

liquidsound
KVRAF
2941 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:01 am

I agree: we need this Gem financially healthy.

But who's casting the votes?

Is it true that the majority of new comers likes Real Copy? Or These are just those that are finding it unusual in which case are doing the right thing by letting Jo know about it? Is that a majority? They try it and they move on? How is that information got to us?

Maybe the majority of New Comers are silent just BECAUSE it is good as it is....

This is something that it should be clear before you touch something so "Purely Perfect" in MuLab.

A Poll is the sum of people willing to vote. It's not the sum of all users's mind.

As of now:
5% of the viewers wrote a post.
3% of the viewers cast a vote.

Where are all these New Comers? Again, how do we got to know this is a real issue?
MuLab.Ableton.Diva.Zebra.Repro-1.Dune2.The Legend.ArcSyn.Spire.TAL

anubis2010
KVRist
59 posts since 16 Jul, 2009

Post Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:36 am

Hi

Everything that Liquidsound is stating is valid.

I for one do not wish the change to be made away from ghost.

For me the poll numbers mean nothing, but all the users comments are key.

A lot of users including myself have said it seemed odd at first.

Unfortunately after reading all the comments on this poll so far, I have to go with the sum of my feels on the subject. The easier an application is to adopt for a newcomer the greater the user base is likely to become.

As far as this poll is concern it would have been nice to see if the votes cast were newbies or expirenced.

Anyway Liquidsound I do feel for you, you obviously love MULAB the way it is, please keep your comments coming you never know Jo might not change it.

To all the viewers out there it would be nice to here comments from newbies that like the ghost default, assuming there are any. Do not be frightened.



anubis2010



:D

liquidsound
KVRAF
2941 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:46 am

Yes I do love this intriguing DAW :love:

I agree: I hope New Comers will participate.
MuLab.Ableton.Diva.Zebra.Repro-1.Dune2.The Legend.ArcSyn.Spire.TAL

User avatar
pljones
KVRAF
6331 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK

Post Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:34 pm

One more thing. Jo's putting in a keyboard shortcut editing system in M3 so maybe it could also support mouse gestures, too? That would let M3 ship with whatever default set up Jo goes for and allow users to change as they see fit.

(Of course, the downside of any system such as the above is the potential increase in support problems.)

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:15 am

The M3 shortcut system supports keys and MIDI, no mouse.

anubis2010
KVRist
59 posts since 16 Jul, 2009

Post Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:52 am

Hi Jo,

You must also get Emails from users that do not use this forum particularly from newbies. We must remember that not all MULAB users have KVR accounts or like using forums.

Just to sum it up, do you feel newbies would prefer the real as default?

This poll could go on and on but you probably have enough information by now to make a gut/hunch call on this one.

After all I am sure all MULAB users want what is best for this great program in the long run.

anubis1020 :D

mutools
KVRAF
9582 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Post Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:51 am

I'll make real copy the default, starting from M3 Test A.
Then we can try it out in the M3 test phase and finetune things if necessary.

DaveL60
KVRian
855 posts since 14 Apr, 2004 from Maryland, USA

Post Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:27 am

I'm inclined to agree that "real" copy should be the default behavior. I think that's more intuitive to new users in that it more closely resembles the behavior of other software (not just DAWs, pretty much all other software).

WRT to the name, I've thought about that a lot and come up with many unsatisfactory alternatives, and my thinking at this point is:

"Real" copy --> Copy
"Ghost" copy --> Linked Copy

and then the option to disconnect a Linked Copy from it's original ("root"?) sequence is "Unlink Copy"

I also think there needs to be a small diagram or two in the documentation to illustrate what's going on and help cement the labels and commands in the user's mind.

DaveL
You can twist perceptions, reality won't budge.
-- Rush Show Don't Tell

Scoox
KVRist
113 posts since 8 May, 2008

Re: Real copy or Ghost copy

Post Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:20 pm

Would be useful if ghost copying worked with automation parts too :wink:

Return to “MUTOOLS”