Split and loop: so complicated

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TmTmClb
KVRer
9 posts since 2 Jan, 2019

Post Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:18 am

mutools wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am

Ok i'm trying to understand your view:
Imagine a shared sequence part of 4 bars.
Then you drag the end to the left so it's 1 only bar, then you Ctrl+drag the end to the right so it loops for 4 bars. At this point i have this question: Is the underlying sequence data altered or not? If yes then this will unexpectedly change other parts too, which would not be good, imho.
Of course, it's not altered. Anything you do with the aliases NEVER EVER changes the original sequence data. The only way to change the original sequence data is in the original sequence.
(sorry for using the word "alias", but between shared part, shared sequence, and shared sequence part, my head is spinning).
mutools wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am
Then you drag the end 1 bar to the left, so now it loops for 3 bars, now you drag the end 1 bar to the right again, then what should that last bar play?
:o :o :o
When you drag the end of a loop, you drag the end of a loop! Not a sequence, not an alias. So it behaves like the loop it is. In your example, you end up with a 4-bar loop again (4 repeats of the 1-bar part you defined before you looped). Just the way it happens now in Mulab, except that in Mulab you can't set the loop size just by dragging the edge in the Composer.

mutools wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am
Unless i'm missing something i think what you are constructively critisizing the most is the scaling = stretching of sequence parts, right? In M7 that indeed takes a couple of steps. In M8 that's a single step.
Not at all.The stretching thing is only the latest subject in this discussion. We got to this point by trying to understand each other, and failing to do so ;)

My only criticism is in the title of this post. From that impossibility of quickly splitting and looping like I demonstrated in the project I posted here, I got to the fact that having to go the Sequence Editor and dealing with loop markers and start marker was disruptive and counterintuitive. My "from scratch" post above summarizes what I think would be the best overall behavior. You've got your original sequence. You creat aliases from it. You can do all kinds of modifications to both sequences and aliases only by dragging their edges with keyboard modifiers. All that in the Composer. If you modify the original sequence, all its aliases are modified accordingly. Nothing you do with the aliases ever alters the original sequence. If you split a sequence, you really split it completely and have two new sequences without overlapping data, and their loop length is defined by their left and right edges. If your users want consistency, all modifications should be feasible in both sequences and aliases, but, again, they must only have influence in one direction: sequence->alias.

I will try Mulab 8 next week.

mutools
KVRAF
9633 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe

Re: Split and loop: so complicated

Post Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:12 pm

TmTmClb wrote:
mutools wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:31 am
Then you drag the end 1 bar to the left, so now it loops for 3 bars, now you drag the end 1 bar to the right again, then what should that last bar play?
:o :o :o
When you drag the end of a loop, you drag the end of a loop! Not a sequence, not an alias. So it behaves like the loop it is. In your example, you end up with a 4-bar loop again (4 repeats of the 1-bar part you defined before you looped). Just the way it happens now in Mulab, except that in Mulab you can't set the loop size just by dragging the edge in the Composer.
Note that in the case above, which uses your proposed rules, i did not use [Ctrl]+drag (= loop) but a straight drag!! So if that would also loop the sequence that's inconsistent, imho. From your proposed rule set i'd expect silence in bar 4, but then if it's a shared sequence this would unexpectedly change other sequences too.

Anyway, i think understand where this discussion originates... see below.
My only criticism is in the title of this post. From that impossibility of quickly splitting and looping like I demonstrated in the project I posted here, I got to the fact that having to go the Sequence Editor and dealing with loop markers and start marker was disruptive and counterintuitive.
I think splitting is no prob, i think it is the sequence looping we have a different conceptual view about. AFAIS you want the loop of a sequence part to be tied to the part so that even different parts playing the same sequence can have different loops. In MuLab however the loop of a sequence is tied to the sequence. This has the advantage that if you change a sequence loop also all other parts playing this sequence will use the new loop. Otherwise you loose the power of shared sequences because if you want to change shared sequence X eg using a new loop then, in your concept, you'd have to update all parts playing that sequence. Right?
I will try Mulab 8 next week.
Note that M8 has not yet been released, but there will be a public beta this month.

Thanks.

TmTmClb
KVRer
9 posts since 2 Jan, 2019

Re: Split and loop: so complicated

Post Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:12 am

mutools wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:12 pm
Note that in the case above, which uses your proposed rules, i did not use [Ctrl]+drag (= loop) but a straight drag!! So if that would also loop the sequence that's inconsistent, imho. From your proposed rule set i'd expect silence in bar 4, but then if it's a shared sequence this would unexpectedly change other sequences too.
Oups sorry, I should have respected my own keyboard shortcuts definitions :oops:
In that case, once a sequence or shared part/alias has been looped, the rightmost edge of that object in the Composer (the right edge of the last repeat) can only be used to increase or decrease the number of loops. Only the original sequence can be extended or stretched. This change is then cascaded to shared parts/aliases and loops derived from that sequence.

Going back to the need for consistency and allowing stretching shared parts/aliases: as I wrote before, doing that in Logic (by moving the right edge of the first "cell" in a loop, the "real" shared part/alias, not its repeats) changes the original sequence too, and it's probably there because the alternative is just too impractical. In Mulab 8, what happens if you stretch a shared part/alias, do this also but differently on another shared part/alias from the same original sequence, and then discover you need to stretch the original?

In today's Logic Pro (I seem to remember it was also the case back in prehistoric times), all the parameters of the shared part/alias can be modified independently, including transposition, quantization, velocity, etc.
https://tinyurl.com/yacsfzqk
Only the length (whether reduced, extended, or stretched) of the shared part/alias is linked both ways. I haven't taken the time to think about it, but at first sight that seems good. The original sequence contains melody, or chords, or drumhits, and the shared parts/aliases can contain variations on them.
mutools wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:12 pm
In MuLab however the loop of a sequence is tied to the sequence. This has the advantage that if you change a sequence loop also all other parts playing this sequence will use the new loop. Otherwise you loose the power of shared sequences because if you want to change shared sequence X eg using a new loop then, in your concept, you'd have to update all parts playing that sequence. Right?
No. It works the same in the model I propose. The edges of the original sequence define the original length of all shared parts, and thefore their loop length. The restriction would be that you couldn't create shared parts from sections of the original sequence that wouldn't be visible/playable in that sequence as it'd sits in the timeline. If you'd want to do that Mulab-style, you'd have to first create a shared part from the original seq, then move its left and right edges until you'd get the section you want. Or you could make one long master sequence, muted or parked somewhere it wouldn't play, the same as the one that always stays in Mulab's browser after a copy/split ("Standard Copy Part etc." pref = OFF). You'd make unique, original sequences on the timeline from sections of it by copying and splitting and moving edges, then share those. It wouldn't be more complicated than it is now, and it has the merit of clarity. Really, I just can't imagine people wanting to playback different parts of a sequence, but with the same loop... If you want to play sections that are outside the loop, split the original in three unique original sequences: before the loop, the loop, after the loop. Who could make sense of some shared parts including maybe a few notes just before the loop, then part of the loop, break in the middle of it, then what? loop that? how?

What is the use of the same loop for different parts? please, anybody, post real-life examples of this, because to me it seems useless and brain-frying.

I should also make clear that in order to work, these functionalities should apply to the FRONT edge of sequences and shared parts/aliases, as much as possible.
mutools wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:12 pm
Note that M8 has not yet been released, but there will be a public beta this month..
Great. I was going to buy v7 in order to try v8, but right now I'm on the fence as to whether I'll buy Mulab or the Mux VST. In any case, I much admire what you've done. Been watching it since v5.

By the way, I found a split-and-loop workflow that would take me closer to what I need, but a couple of things are missing. It involves
1. Split a sequence ("Standard Copy Part etc." pref = OFF. Here too, if it's ON, in the case of a split, I really really would like to see a practical use of this.)
2. Consolidate both resulting sequences.
3. "Delete Unuseds" in the Sequences->This Project browser.
Thing is, Consolidate does not create a loop (no loop markers, infinity symbol in Composer name), even with "Auto Loop New Sequences" ON. Why? isn't that a bug?
Secondly, I can't find the function for that "Delete Unused" ( no S :) ) in order to make a keyboard shortcut.

P.S. Best word for a shared part/alias/clone/ghost/slave/duplicate/etc. : an INSTANCE.

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