E-drums performance

[pimenta]

Not really happy with e-drums performance and the kits from Group I and Group II buy.

Since day one .. some of the kits have really terrible dynamics when playing nuances and using lower level hits. The inconsistency between kits is also huge.

With randomization on or off... round-robin on ... high levels of vel to rnd .. nothing seems to fix this problem. And yes I did install the update patches... all of them. I am a bit surpirsed though that I did not see many people complaining: either not many e-drummers around here.. or I have an isolated problem - which I doubt: played these kits through my desktop set up... my laptot.. and on both got bad performance with many .. many of the kits. The only exceptions seem to be the John Blackwell and NDV kits. But even so .. not at the same level of other libraries.. even Addictive Drums which is not a "heavy".. huuger library... plays soooo much better.

Below some examples of a MIDI track I ran on vdrums.com . through your competing libraries (Superior/BFD2/Addictive/Abbey Road) and thr group buys:

Sonic Reality kits

http://www.4shared.com/audio/vaRodS47/S ... rotta.html http://www.4shared.com/audio/P6hbrxvV/S ... _kit1.html
http://www.4shared.com/audio/huRLiCo9/S ... kit_2.html
http://www.4shared.com/audio/ZZM7a_dR/S ... tlieb.html
http://www.4shared.com/audio/hvb7Q1Jv/_ ... B_Yam.html http://www.4shared.com/audio/WuHPQDVv/_ ... MApeX.html

Competitors:

Addictive Drums
http://www.4shared.com/audio/kLYKXuFh/Addictive.html


ABbey Road
http://www.4shared.com/audio/0ey8lo1D/A ... emier.html

BFD2

http://www.4shared.com/audio/heg-PPvv/B ... k_Pie.html

Superior 2
http://www.4shared.com/audio/JIEOpi_-/S ... vatar.html

Once again... I would love having more playability out of the kits from Sonic Reality/Infinite Player ... most of them are really bad with e-drums.

Pls let me know if there is anything else I can do to improve performance.

Pim

[Rockdude]

I'm with you on every aspect pimenta and I've mentioned the same issues in this forum before too. Much work has been done to please edrummers, but much more has to be done.

[pimenta]

They have to improve a lot... and based on the promisses made... of improvement... they are not seeing a single cent from me until this gets sorted out.

Thanks for pointing out to the other topics you posted :

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=289411

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... start=1695


Good for finger drumming... not for e-drums. I love the sounds.. do no get me wrong but if I cannot play them .. how good it is?


Pim

[Squids]

Well, of course you guys are entitled to your opinions. Although I seem to remember you both enjoying it quite a bit back then. Seems to have grown more toward the negative since which I find a little surprising. But, it doesn't take away from the fact that you feel strongly about it and we want to hear the feedback from our customers.

Yes a LOT has been done to try to please e-Drummers with these kits. A ton of development with modifying scripts to be able to get some of the best out of what Kontakt can do. Some kits may be more ideal for e-drum mapping than others. Timbral dynamic variation does depend on more samples although amplitude variation depends also on velocity settings of either the software or the pads or both. They can vary so just playing a static midi file that wasn't made to the kits doesn't tell the whole story. Again, if they sound great for finger drumming then they could sound just as good on e-drums. The only thing that'd be different are rolls and whether there's any machine gun effect or not. With the round robin feature it is at least remarkably improved from the previous version that was released prior. Is each kit sampled to be optimal for round robin? No, that varies. Those weren't recorded with round robin in mind in the first place so we had to work with what we had. But, this was all talked about, that those collections were more about the variety than they were about one mega velocity/alt sampled kit at a time. A compromise but balanced by the bang for the buck factor... no one questioned the VALUE of what they were getting for their money in terms of sample content.

Now, after Rockdude's issues with Rod Morgenstein kit which IS sampled more with RR in mind I have even greater concerns about pleasing every e-Drummer. There's less consistencies between people's set ups, there are different - maybe wider degrees of discernment amongst the musicians playing it... it's a tough one. We'll certainly do our best. I think we have some options for RD's RM kit to try because there are at least a lot of samples to work with. So we'll see what can be done there. I'm extremely optimistic. As for the DM2 STm kits, the JB and NDV kits would be some of the better ones for that. The others still sound great - I mean some GREAT character diversity in there. But as far as how they are on e-Drum kits, apart from having the same features the results will vary from person to person, kit to kit, set up to set up. I know you two are advanced users who are looking for the highest degrees of expression from what I've read. I can totally respect that. I'm sorry you're not satisfied with what we've done so far. Updates are generally free though so there is a chance you'll be happy with enhancements made in the future or any sort of tips and tricks we may be able to come up with that would help you get what you're after. Barring that a discount on an upcoming library that has the features you want is also a possibility too. We do everything a company can do within reason to please our customers.

[Squids]

Wait, I have a question here. With that midi file are you playing the V-Drum map in DM2? I definitely hear some of the issues with the rolls. Other than that I think they sound quite good actually. But any sort of machine gunning (while present on the V-Drum's own internal sounds-o-plenty for $5,000-7,000) is not desirable with e-drummers. I'm with you there. But I need to investigate this a little further myself and if you want to post that midi file I will check it out and let you know what I think. Sound good?

[Rockdude]

Well, of course you guys are entitled to your opinions. Although I seem to remember you both enjoying it quite a bit back then. Seems to have grown more toward the negative since which I find a little surprising. But, it doesn't take away from the fact that you feel strongly about it and we want to hear the feedback from our customers.

Yes, I was thrilled and a fanboy in the beginning (still is for the great sound quality and your caring and support for the products). The group buys were great value for 99 bucks! Lots and lots of different drumkits.
At the time I only had parts of my e-kit kit set up due to a rebuild. I played all the kits on my Roland midi keyboard which it worked and sounded great on. I still think it does! I should blame myself for participating in two group buys without testing it thoroughly on my e-kit. After testing it more rigorously on my e-kit I found the "issues" I've complained about and given suggestion and offered help to solve or improve. When I heard the Morgenstein kit from Epic Drums were sold a la carte I thought I better give that a try since it is much bigger and the issues might or should not happen on that kit. It didn't help either, but I haven't given up entirely on that kit, believe me Squids I'm all eager to help out...I want this to work and I don't want to be a pain in the a** complaining all the time, but for my needs it doesn't work as I want it to. I hope my complaints and suggestions can lead to something good, a better product and end result for a wider user base.

Yes a LOT has been done to try to please e-Drummers with these kits. A ton of development with modifying scripts to be able to get some of the best out of what Kontakt can do. Some kits may be more ideal for e-drum mapping than others. Timbral dynamic variation does depend on more samples although amplitude variation depends also on velocity settings of either the software or the pads or both. They can vary so just playing a static midi file that wasn't made to the kits doesn't tell the whole story.

I agree with you, a midi file doesn't tell the whole story but it gives a pretty good overall review of performance. It could play better, but also worse for someone else.

Again, if they sound great for finger drumming then they could sound just as good on e-drums. The only thing that'd be different are rolls and whether there's any machine gun effect or not. With the round robin feature it is at least remarkably improved from the previous version that was released prior.

Good rolls and absence of machine gunning are two very important factors for e-drummers...I bet it is for finger drummers too, most of the time they just don't have to deal with it at the same degree as an e-drummer. I'm glad the round robin has improved, though it is still not quite there performance wise..for me.

Is each kit sampled to be optimal for round robin? No, that varies. Those weren't recorded with round robin in mind in the first place so we had to work with what we had. But, this was all talked about, that those collections were more about the variety than they were about one mega velocity/alt sampled kit at a time. A compromise but balanced by the bang for the buck factor... no one questioned the VALUE of what they were getting for their money in terms of sample content.

I respect that and appreciate all the efforts done to improve performance for all customers of the two group buys. Fantastic sounding samples as I've mentioned in numerous threads before. Regarding the mega velocity/alt samples kits I think you know where I stand since we've discussed that in other threads...and I liked those discussions a lot An uber sampled snare, ride and hihat to acompany the group buy kit pieces might be a great solution. I'm still curious about that Collins snare you ubersampled some time ago and I've tried to lurk some more info from you regarding that earlier

Now, after Rockdude's issues with Rod Morgenstein kit which IS sampled more with RR in mind I have even greater concerns about pleasing every e-Drummer. There's less consistencies between people's set ups, there are different - maybe wider degrees of discernment amongst the musicians playing it... it's a tough one. We'll certainly do our best. I think we have some options for RD's RM kit to try because there are at least a lot of samples to work with. So we'll see what can be done there. I'm extremely optimistic. As for the DM2 STm kits, the JB and NDV kits would be some of the better ones for that.

When I'm pleased everyone else will be too Just kidding, but seriously, I'm up for all kinds of testing and tweaking for the Morgenstein kit. I'm glad you're optimistic!

The others still sound great - I mean some GREAT character diversity in there. But as far as how they are on e-Drum kits, apart from having the same features the results will vary from person to person, kit to kit, set up to set up.

Great character without doubt. Regarding the performance on e-drum kits, I do agree to some extent. It can all sound and perform different on different setups, but very few can deny that for example Superior Drummer performs good with most e-drums. Sound wise I think opinions could differ more from user to user. I for example think most Superior Drummer kits are too punchy and clean. I like the sounds from Sonic Reality better. I actually think you've got one of the best sounding drum samples there is. Sonic Reality and Platinum Samples are my favorites in drum sounds.

I'm not saying that the kits from the group buy should perform as good as the kits in Superior Drummer, but the Morgenstein kit should have potential to perform good, with good dynamics and less machine gunning than it currently has.

I know you two are advanced users who are looking for the highest degrees of expression from what I've read. I can totally respect that.

Yes we might be just that, but I think most vdrums users at for example the vdrums.com forum are that too. And that's a huge user base who also should be interested in the great drum sounds Sonic Reality offers. I actually think e-drummers in general are pretty picky.

I'm sorry you're not satisfied with what we've done so far. Updates are generally free though so there is a chance you'll be happy with enhancements made in the future or any sort of tips and tricks we may be able to come up with that would help you get what you're after. Barring that a discount on an upcoming library that has the features you want is also a possibility too. We do everything a company can do within reason to please our customers.

I appreciate every single effort done so far. Don't get me wrong. As you said, I'm not satisfied yet, but I look forward to future updates, enhancements and testing to improve performance.

I do hope The Neil Peart kit for BFD2 will perform good and sell well.
Btw, this thread is a result of the ongoing discussion about machine gunning in BFD2 at the vdrums forum. A good read
I also hope we'll see Sonic Reality release something with Toontrack in the future.
http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62041

And now off to play my newest instrument. A Quijada! An old instrument from biblical times made from the jawbone of a donkey...or it basically is the jawbone of a donkey. I got it as a gift from one of my friends who traveled in Peru recently. And don't tell me that you've already sampled it Squids!
Here's a link to how it could be played:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bruQxx9 ... re=related

[pimenta]

Squids,

Was very surprised on how you started your reply. Of course... a fan boy here at the beginning. But you might remember my complains over there at the vdrums forum? About how "unplayable" the Greene kits were? Or even questioning what I should expect.. or even if I was expecting too much from something I paid US$ 99 bucks (I remember you even replying over there) ?


Do not get me wrong man.. I am not expressing an "opinion" or being "negative" but just stating the facts: some of the kits offered are unplayable and unable to offer any decent dynamics for the e-drummer.. period. The files posted speak for themselves.They are an small example on how those kits play (or don't!) with my kit.

What is my objective? Bash your product and all the effort put into these kits? Of course not - my objective is having a playable product and try contributing something to it. I even remember pointing out you guys soundwise did a great job: the kits are not as processed as Steven Slate .. not as "raw" as S2/BFD2.

Let's just cut to the chase and see what can be done.. if anything could be done to solve this. And yes... I used the v-drum kits... tried working with the different parameters involving dynamics within the engine .. and the module itself.. nothing.. no improvement.


Again, as a customer I would appreciate any help you can provide us with.

Here is the MIDI file:


http://www.4shared.com/audio/7UCrC_iY/TEST.html

Pim

[Squids]

Okay guys. Good stuff. Let me see what can be done. Perhaps the midi file as a common point of reference could be useful.

By the way, some of those kits are just going to sound better for e-drums than others... especially in terms of rolls and things like that. Ed Greene is not one that I think would be ideal for e-drums. I mean, for many people they'd just like to still have that sound anyway... I mean, after all, the sounds IN the V-Drum itself also have issues with rolls too but thousands of people use those. So when I say you guys are on the expert level, it's true. We're into that too but keep in mind that those kits weren't made with the intention of being great V-Drum kits from the start. They were already released just in iMap and GM. It's an enhancement of version 2 that they have V-Drum map specs... but that doesn't mean each kit will perform the same as the next in that context. Depends on the samples.

Either way, we've invested a lot of time, effort and money to provide features for the V-Drum and E-Drum community and I am not one to give up on making things as great as they can be. Keep in mind that I also have a V-Drum set up at my studio and I want them to be as good as possible for when drummers (or myself) play the samples too.

To respond to one thing Rockdude said though. there is no issue with machine gun with the iMap versions. That's because you can't really "roll" on a keyboard like you can bouncing sticks. There are tons of variation to play and there's even real snare rolls to use which often sound better than any snare roll done on an e-kit.

Anyway, those STm kits we can try to get to the max of their playability for V-Drums but will hit a certain ceiling just because it is what it is. But other sampled kits like Peart (and yes Morgenstein's for sure) are sampled with more alternate hits and should do better with the same RR features that the others have... just more variation to work with. Pim you and anyone else from the V-Drum forum can get a little discount on any of the upcoming kits if you genuinely prefer a more detailed sampled high end kit vs. 25+ variety kits.

By the way, side note on the Collins kit. Its done! The Gretsch which is almost the same spec as Phil's. Man it sounds good! Although the variation of the Black Beauty is limited because it had some muting... however that made it a great sounding snare too so... I know I like it! It's not encoded yet by NI though. I just got it a week ago from the programmer working on it. I am using it on this album I am doing with him now. Many many great things coming (also the Danny Gottlieb Cymbal Collection IS back from NI!).

[Rockdude]

To respond to one thing Rockdude said though. there is no issue with machine gun with the iMap versions. That's because you can't really "roll" on a keyboard like you can bouncing sticks. There are tons of variation to play and there's even real snare rolls to use which often sound better than any snare roll done on an e-kit.

Oh I thought it was clear that I was talking about my issues on e-drums and not finger drumming on keyboard which I mentioned it worked and sounded great on:

I played all the kits on my Roland midi keyboard which it worked and sounded great on.

After testing it more rigorously on my e-kit I found the "issues" I've complained about and given suggestion and offered help to solve or improve.

Good rolls and absence of machine gunning are two very important factors for e-drummers...I bet it is for finger drummers too, most of the time they just don't have to deal with it at the same degree as an e-drummer.

This whole thread is about how it performs on e-drums so I hope all reading it is in no doubt that the kits are great for finger drummers or for those who prefer programming drums in a midi editor. btw, some of the kits are also ok for basic grooves on an e-kit without any rolls or lighter ghost notes. I read about more people at vdrums.com though who like me and Pim bought the group buys, but rarely use them due to how they perform on an e-kit currently. I hope this will change after improvements.

Anyways, I'm glad you're working on improving The Rod Morgenstein kit. You know how to contact me when there's any updates or patches to try

[pimenta]

Thank you again for answering Squids. Again... we want to be constructive ... to be sincere I am not willing to put any more money into these packs/kits if I cannot get the ones I already have working as desired. Thanks for the discount offer though.

Please let us know about the MIDi file. It plays great with Superior2, BFD2 and also Addictive Drums and is a good reflexion on the playability an e-drummer might expect. I became an e-drummer by limitation: cannot have an acoustic kit.. so I want the closest experience ever to an acoustic one. And I am talking chokes.. positional sensing.. three-zones at least for the ride (would love that for the crash... and what the heck even for the hi-hat that bell sound is nice when used at the right context). Again, the dynamics problem is not limited to the kits I highlighted. The Drum Masters plays better but still lacking in comparison to the other software I own.

I have no doubt these kits play nicely with a keyboard. I can be mistaken here but I find very hard somebody will spend more US$ with something that is not optimized for their e-drums. I have no problem with S2 and very little with BFD2 (none with Johm Emrich's packs and Platinum Andy Johns/Evil Drums).. and since rockdued reported similar problems with the Morgenstein kit which is more in line with the S2/BFD2 profile.... no thanks.

But I am hopeful you guys will sort it out. Please let us know how it goes with your tests.

Pim

[Rockdude]

...and since rockdued reported similar problems with the Morgenstein kit which is more in line with the S2/BFD2 profile.... no thanks

Squids and I ain't done with that kit yet. Right now it's not useful at all for me, but I hope a patch can change everything and that I could tell the world that it works great. I doubt it will happen, but I really hope it will! The future will tell how it goes, but right now I'll stay low until things is sorted.

[pimenta]

Squids and I ain't done with that kit yet. Right now it's not useful at all for me, but I hope a patch can change everything and that I could tell the world that it works great. I doubt it will happen, but I really hope it will! The future will tell how it goes, but right now I'll stay low until things is sorted.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you my friend....

Pim

[blueman]

Too bad these aren't working on the e-drums for you guys. I listened to the examples and the snare and drum rolls do have that unrealistic machine gun effect. That is unfortunate because the samples themselves sound so good. The organic quality and color of these drum samples are some of the best imo and yes, they do work great for midi and "finger drumming". I guess you guys just have different needs. That said, I found the JB and NDV kits very usable and with a few workarounds, you could probably make them work I'd be interested to hear more experiments and tips if you discover any....

I was going to buy an e-drum kit myself, specifically for using these samples. At least now I'll know what to expect. I think you guys are offering a good opportunity for SR to step it up and find solutions. e-Drum kits are becoming more and more affordable so this market will grow. It's too important to ignore. I believe Squids and co. will take care of it

Rich