Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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jancivil
KVRAF
16119 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:04 pm

Stamped Records wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:25 am
The presence of the minor 3rd did confuse me for the Esus4 example I have to say.
I recommend you ignore all of that.

Sus4 as you apparently realize is a replacement for the third. It comes from a literal suspension in CPP use, a tone from the previous harmony held over, here resulting in a suspended 4th. It may be resolved during the harmony it's suspended over.
If there is a chord with both the 3rd and 4th it tends to be called an 11th chord. Minor chord with a P4? 11th chord, full stop. Typical is m7 construction add the 4 or 11. Could call it add4 :shrug:.

In no sense is there a minor/#5. E G C already has a useful name/identity.

Stamped Records
KVRist
31 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:59 pm

IncarnateX wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:45 am
Stamped Records wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:25 am
So, basically what you're saying is that the function of the chord is my choice and that whatever function I choose is what gives it it's name.
Not exactly, the function will - as Jan points out- depend on what key you are in in the first place, e.g. C major or E minor?
Or maybe an I6 move to IV?
Yes, it would but it is not a question of what immediately preceeds or follows but the tonal context as a whole, e.g. in C major, F major will be percieved as the subdominant chord while it certainly will not in Em, where it will turn the mode into phrygian E minor.
I see. Thanks for the explanation. So, is it's ok for me to continue naming them in my own idiotic chromatic way, provided I can still understand other people's actual chord namings, and still be getting the most out of my understanding? I suspect the answer is a definite no, but how damaging would it be?

Stamped Records
KVRist
31 posts since 20 Sep, 2018 from UK

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:29 pm

jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:49 am
Ok for a more CPP example: you have an E7 chord with the 7th in the bass (this is called a 2 chord, as the bass is a '2' from the root; 4/2 is the figured bass sign) and the D moves down to C in your C G A E; that's an A minor harmony, add 7.
I think I understand, after much personal deliberation, what a 2 chord is. Correct me if I'm wrong in saying that it's a mirror of an inversion, notes from the top down instead of the bottom up?

If that is the case, that's a new and interesting perspective but it's a 3rd inversion E7 in the end, no?

I'm puzzled about the how the E7 has a C in it though.

A lot of this information is currently beyond me so pardon me if I just ask a few questions now and try and process a bit more of what was already said while I'm at my keyboard tomorrow. :tu:

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jancivil
KVRAF
16119 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:56 pm

Yes, it's a third inversion 7th chord.

I didn't say it has a C in it. I'm giving you an example of why an Am is an Am via voice-leading.

D E B G#, to
C E G A
for instance. It's A minor because dominant function to A.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jancivil
KVRAF
16119 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:02 pm

Stamped Records wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:59 pm
IncarnateX wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:45 am
Stamped Records wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:25 am
So, basically what you're saying is that the function of the chord is my choice and that whatever function I choose is what gives it it's name.
Not exactly, the function will - as Jan points out- depend on what key you are in in the first place, e.g. C major or E minor?
Or maybe an I6 move to IV?
Yes, it would but it is not a question of what immediately preceeds or follows but the tonal context as a whole, e.g. in C major, F major will be percieved as the subdominant chord while it certainly will not in Em, where it will turn the mode into phrygian E minor.
I see. Thanks for the explanation. So, is it's ok for me to continue naming them in my own idiotic chromatic way, provided I can still understand other people's actual chord namings, and still be getting the most out of my understanding? I suspect the answer is a definite no, but how damaging would it be?
I think his "not exactly" was an interpretation of 'so the function is my choice'; I can be more specific than I was. The function in your music is a choice, by you to be 'functional' therein, but should there be a function where you have decided it is not that function (or made something up), maybe not.

EG: E G C does not function as an E minor #5, nor will any person make that mistake in 'perceiving', it's nonsense. ;)

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jancivil
KVRAF
16119 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:16 pm

Stamped Records wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:29 pm
jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:49 am
Ok for a more CPP example: you have an E7 chord with the 7th in the bass (this is called a 2 chord, as the bass is a '2' from the root; 4/2 is the figured bass sign) and the D moves down to C in your C G A E; that's an A minor harmony, add 7.
I think I understand, after much personal deliberation, what a 2 chord is. Correct me if I'm wrong in saying that it's a mirror of an inversion, notes from the top down instead of the bottom up?
It figures the bass; the bass relates to the root and then the rest of the harmony.

'6 chord', short for 6/3: E G C. E to C, C being the root of the C major chord, is the 6. E to G is the 3.

6/5 chord (short for 6/5/3), E G B C: retaining 6 & 3, obviously; now E to B is the 5.

6/4, G C E.

4/3 (short for 6/4/3), G B C E: you have it by now.

(4/2, B C E G: 2, 4, & 6)

Of course this applies regardless of the vertical order of the chord's parts {other than the bass of course}.
(Root position triad is a 5/3.)


- technically your word 'mirror' is not needed, *inverted* is sufficient.

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excuse me please
KVRist
70 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:26 pm

jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:40 am
excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:52 am
I stand corrected; it's not my problem people can't read.
Your two chord names I addressed are basically just incompetence on parade. Get lost.
I have to get lost, because you can't read? You are really something...

User avatar
excuse me please
KVRist
70 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:20 pm

Dear OP, compare these two chords: Cmaj6 and Cm6

C E G A, C Eb G A

As you can see, the interval C-A is both called m6 AND Maj6, which makes no sense; there is no such thing as a m6 interval, logically spoken! There's only a Maj6 interval.

Now I ask you... if a train arrives at Berkeley station, and you see everyone jump before that train... would you jump before that train too? Or would you rather wait for a few seconds to catch that train and get the hell out of Berkeley? It's up to you, I assume.

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jancivil
KVRAF
16119 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:02 pm


someone called simon
KVRist
480 posts since 24 Jul, 2008 from a small city in a small country in the antipodes

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:46 pm

Just running this up the flagpole here, as they say...

What kind of music are you writing? If it's something in the ballpark of pop/rock/country/folk whatever else non-highbrow kind of thing, and you're imaging some kind of band or computer based equivalent playing it, perhaps with keys, bass etc, I would name it after whatever note the bass is playing, that sounds 'right' to you.

So if your keyboard is playing a cluster of notes, C E G A, in any order, but higher than the bass register... well, what note do you want the bass player to play? If it's an A, the chord is Am7, if it's a C the chord is a C6 (or C add6 perhaps I should say.)

This comes from someone who googled CPP and found 38 possible definitions on a wikipedia disambiguation page, none of which seems relevant. So, unschooled in the formal sense, but having played for years in bands...

Also, and I don't mind being slapped on the hand here, I probably may have called the chord E G C "Em#5" in some circumstances. Like in the guitar part in the Rolling Stone's 'hot stuff', where there's an Em chord, but B is hammered on to a C on the 4th beat... calling it a C chord doesn't sound right to me, and I can't call it a Em6 as that implies a C#. In my musical perversity I'd like to call it "Em sus6", coz it functions rather like a suspended 4th does, a little elevation of a note in the chord, that wants to resolve down to it's home note again. However I suspect no-one else in the world thinks that way as I don't think a sus6 is a thing at all.

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excuse me please
KVRist
70 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:55 pm

Compare these chords: Cm6 (C-Eb-G-A), Cm7 (C-Eb-G-Bb) and CmM7 (C-Eb-G-B).

It's obvious that the symbols m7 and M7 relate to the intervals C-Bb and C-B, but the m6 symbol does not relate to the interval of a minor 6th. Which is as confusing as it is inconsequent. Because the interval in the m6 chord is a 6th, not a minor 6th. It's nonsense; there is no such thing as a minor 6th interval.

C7 (C-E-G-Bb), again.. the 7 is an inconsequent symbol; consequently it should be called CMm7, just like the CmM7 (C-Eb-G-B) chord. Therefore a Cm6 chord actually is a CmM6 chord. The C6 chord is obvious, though; there is no m6 interval. Now.. excuse me please.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3328 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:01 pm

jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:02 pm

I think his "not exactly" was an interpretation of 'so the function is my choice'
Yup. OP: Which key you will play in is your choice but from that point, functions of chords will depend on key and should be named accordingly, also if you change key.

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IncarnateX
KVRAF
3328 posts since 25 Jan, 2009 from Forgotten Realms

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:10 pm

excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:26 pm

I have to get lost, because you can't read? You are really something...
Can't read? On which planet would that be, your chords don't exist on this one. Kid, you have shit your pants in public. Your face will not be saved by rubbing it further in it.

User avatar
excuse me please
KVRist
70 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:52 pm

@IncarnateX

Yes, you are right about the E-G-A-C chord considered the sus4 symbol. It should simply be a #3. Sorry. It should be Em#3#5 then.

A Gsus4 chord (G-C-D) then becomes G-B#-D=G#3, if that makes sense.

The only dilemma is that the scale E-F#-G-A-B-C-D-E becomes E-F#-G-A-B-B#-D-E, but at least the chord G-B#-D makes more sense than G-C-D as a written chord IMO. Because the symbols relate to the chord and not to the scales.

User avatar
excuse me please
KVRist
70 posts since 10 Oct, 2018

Re: Why a C6 is not an Am7?

Post Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:57 pm

IncarnateX wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:10 pm
excuse me please wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:26 pm

I have to get lost, because you can't read? You are really something...
Can't read? On which planet would that be, your chords don't exist on this one. Kid, you have shit your pants in public. Your face will not be saved by rubbing it further in it.
You clearly have some trouble with reading, yes; my comment was deliberately not addressed to you, but to member jancivil. Address your posts correctly, please.

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