The guide formerly known as Ravenspiral Guide

[jancivil]

There's no such thing as a #13

C to A# is an augmented sixth, which is the actual basis for the harmony of that name, so if you place the '#6' an octave higher it is in fact a #13, augmented 13th.

it isn't typical, if seen at all, in jazz extensions but to say there is no such thing is not correct.

Well, alright - you can talk about them but for all practical intents...
just makes a muddle of things for people starting out.

Then you go on to explain your target market operates under the assumption that all spelling uses sharps.

I don't blame you for excluding these but you are talking a kind of bollocks, with 'for all practical intents' and so forth. You need to teach these people why things are spelled as they are if you want to avoid muddle, they are beginning with muddled.

[Ogg Vorbis]

every tracker user knows the C minor scale goes C D D# F G G# A# C. If you don't understand that, you don't understand my intended audience.

Well, maybe I don't understand your target audience, but this is a very dubious statement to give to a beginner. Technically of course it is wrong; C minor has an Eb in it, not a D#. I trust you will give this the necessary and suitable explanation?

Hey lay off, man. You are from the stodgy old world of academic rules and boring music with oboes and ghey-ass fruity flutes.

Trackers are for cool music that is more modern and relevant and speaks to the current age - not for old wrinkled ladies that can't handle dancing until 6 am.

The chick on the dancefloor who is going home with the DJ doesn't care if it's a C# or a Db. You take your correctly spelled scales and I'll take a shot of goose, a hit of X and the redhead with the pierced nipples.

Get on or get spit on!

[JumpingJackFlash]

You are from the stodgy old world of academic rules... Trackers are for cool music that is more modern and relevant and speaks to the current age

Isn't that like saying why do we bother teaching kids how to spell anymore when the cool people just use txtspeak all the time? Why do we teach maths when kids can just use a calculator? Why bother with textbooks when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia..?

[ghettosynth]

You are from the stodgy old world of academic rules... Trackers are for cool music that is more modern and relevant and speaks to the current age

Isn't that like saying why do we bother teaching kids how to spell anymore when the cool people just use txtspeak all the time? Why do we teach maths when kids can just use a calculator? Why bother with textbooks when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia..?

Wooooooooooossshhhhhhhhh.....


That breeze that you're feeling should be telling you something. That said, your analogies are a bit off, you might want to get them checked by a professional.

[Ogg Vorbis]

Isn't that like saying why do we bother teaching kids how to spell anymore when the cool people just use txtspeak all the time? Why do we teach maths when kids can just use a calculator? Why bother with textbooks when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia..?

I think it's a very tough sell. I am not sure what traditional musicians have to say that an EDM producer would listen to.
It's kind of why I don't post much here anymore

[ghettosynth]

Isn't that like saying why do we bother teaching kids how to spell anymore when the cool people just use txtspeak all the time? Why do we teach maths when kids can just use a calculator? Why bother with textbooks when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia..?

I think it's a very tough sell. I am not sure what traditional musicians have to say that an EDM producer would listen to.
It's kind of why I don't post much here anymore

Clearly, they listen to a lot. Aren't some of them thanking the OP for a nearly 100 page guide? It seems to me that you guys missed the OP's point; it sounded to me like he was saying that his intended audience has a minimal skill level and his guide is to try to help with that, without being too verbose.

He simply stated that, from his point of view, the minor point that you were debating can wait for part two of the guide.

I see a lot of posters successfully bridging the gap. I get it if that's not interesting to you, but don't blame the audience because they aren't looking for the message that you have. It's clear that they are looking for some message and it's also clear that some people know how to deliver that message.

[jancivil]

I don't know, that analogy seems apt enough. I think the idea of talking to a certain kind of mentality informs this book to its detriment.

I downloaded the pdf. Given the remarks recently I have a sort of concern about the pedagogy.

I think the stuff for beginners is good. EDIT: at page 5 I think it is time to get into why a flat and not a sharp. I'm sure I would wonder at this point. It becomes a barrage of information here and continues to be.

overall, the ambition of it seems to be rather exceeding the writer's ability to construct and convey the lessons. It's a bit manic to do this in one document anyway IME.

It's a terrific lot to digest in a comparatively brief span. It strives to be encyclopedically compleat.
(There are books available for this information written by people in the business of teaching.)

there are things I really object to as a factual matter: "it's not worth touching on modes further until after we've dealt with chords"
- after you've touched on modes quite a bit. Modes are just not a function of chords. There is no real basis for this assumption. If you're going to delve into modes, you should probably have a better grasp of what they are, the history and so forth. Later you have a chord that's 'tied to the phrygian mode'. That could be arrived at through all sorts of reasons, and isn't tied to any such thing.

I don't intend to offend or be mean, or anything of the sort. But there is quite a lot that is liable to create a confusion for a student down the road, giving all this information and all of this OPINION - the concern I mention above arises out of this opinionated thrust.

"The eleventh series is most definitely in the realm of classical and jazz musicians than ordinary human beings. Knowing a bit more theory about how these chords best function against other chords will probably endear me to them a bit more, but as is they're just harmonically cumbersome and probably not worth knowing the theory of: stuff this esoteric is better discovered as needed. When i get over my fear of them and suss them out on my own terms, i'll be kinder."

You shouldn't be teaching this at all, I'm sorry. You objected, 'sure you can talk about [#13]...' I wasn't. I was just making sure you had that there can be such a thing. But you have a number of 'jazz' type of chords that just are not in currency, eg: '^7 11'; 'min ^7 11'. Ogg Vorbis gave you an actual reason for [#13, b11] extensions, I know horn players that like to investigate eg., #15 and beyond, things for real that have real harmonic reasoning behind them.
So there is a point and it's way back before this area of your book where you've exceeded your own knowledge but went on anyway.

Sorry, no problem and nothing at all personal, but you are exposing a theory book to people with experience in it and you will be criticized. Be open to the criticism as a stage in your own learning is my advice.

[jancivil]

it sounded to me like he was saying that his intended audience has a minimal skill level and his guide is to try to help with that, without being too verbose.

He simply stated that, from his point of view, the minor point that you were debating can wait for part two of the guide.

I see a lot of posters successfully bridging the gap. I get it if that's not interesting to you, but don't blame the audience because they aren't looking for the message that you have. It's clear that they are looking for some message and it's also clear that some people know how to deliver that message.

the book is quite verbose. He does get into such extensions in the book I downloaded.

[ghettosynth]

I downloaded the pdf. Given the remarks recently I have a sort of concern about the pedagogy.

I think the stuff for beginners is good.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. You seem to have a lot of concern about how others teach others and you primarily express your concern as criticism. Unless I missed something, you don't have a guide, amiright? What I see more successful posters doing is recognizing that teaching is about bridging existing knowledge with new information while not alienating the student.

I don't intend to offend or be mean, or anything of the sort. But there is quite a lot that is liable to create a confusion for a student down the road, giving all this information and all of this OPINION - the concern I mention above arises out of this opinionated thrust.

"The eleventh series is most definitely in the realm of classical and jazz musicians than ordinary human beings. Knowing a bit more theory about how these chords best function against other chords will probably endear me to them a bit more, but as is they're just harmonically cumbersome and probably not worth knowing the theory of: stuff this esoteric is better discovered as needed. When i get over my fear of them and suss them out on my own terms, i'll be kinder."

You shouldn't be teaching this at all, I'm sorry.

But he is, and people will read it, and use it, or not. Really, it doesn't matter. That is, your criticism doesn't matter. As you say, it's too much for a short setting. If people are serious, they'll move on to other more appropriate resources. If they're not, they'll most likely be intimidated by those sections and ignore them.

[jancivil]

That is, your criticism doesn't matter.

My criticism is designed for the person that made this book. He is in a position to learn from what I said. I am not looking to make a book, no. I have however shown people in the concrete how to achieve particular aims in this forum. Your criticism of me really doesn't matter.

Here is something to look at as far as giving a new-to-theory person a grasp of some basics very concisely and clearly. It is free, all that is required is to give up an email address.

https://www.berkleemusic.com/landing/do ... y-handbook

[ghettosynth]

without being too verbose.

He does get into such extensions in the book I downloaded.

"Too" verbose is clearly relative here. (Reaching for the nearest beginners theory book in my lame-ass and clearly insufficient collection) "Scales, Intervals, Keys, and Triads" is 158 pages, doesn't get past triads, as the name implies. Granted, it's a "programmed text", ok. (Reaching for the next available beginners theory book in my lame-ass and clearly insufficient collection) "Music Fundamentals & Functional Skills" 257 pages and no such extensions.

Ok, they serve a slightly different purpose, but 100 pages cannot possibly be "too verbose" given the content.

I often recommend a thin little book of about 100 pages to beginners (not in music, the subject isn't relevant). It's written by an expert in the field, but there are things in it that just make me cringe. Really, though, they just don't matter. The ideas presented work fine if one doesn't push too hard and the book helps people from making really bad mistakes. It helps people function using the tools in an applied context. In other words, it's better that someone wrote the book than that no one didn't. I think that the same thing is true here.

[ghettosynth]

That is, your criticism doesn't matter.

My criticism is designed for the person that made this book. He is in a position to learn from what I said. I am not looking to make a book, no. I have however shown people in the concrete how to achieve particular aims in this forum. Your criticism of me really doesn't matter.

Except that you fail to reach people. It's not clear to me that you've showed as much right as you criticize what "you think" is wrong.

Here is something to look at as far as giving a new-to-theory person a grasp of some basics very concisely and clearly. It is free, all that is required is to give up an email address.

https://www.berkleemusic.com/landing/do ... y-handbook

I doubt that will be chosen over the guide in this forum; it's verbose, partially a sales pitch, so it won't be trusted, and comes at music from a "traditional" point of view.

This course uses musical examples from the Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and 20th century periods, in addition to relevant examples from contemporary popular artists and styles.

It tries very hard to be "hip", but even if the message is on point, it fails to be a simple guide to application of musical tools. Maybe that's a completely erroneous point of view, but it strikes me as that's what people are asking for.

Why not post the link to that guide on a top post instead of burying it in here?

[jancivil]

What I see more successful posters doing is recognizing that teaching is about bridging existing knowledge with new information while not alienating the student.

for a little bit of a start, here's what I do here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... w=previous

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &view=next

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &view=next

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &view=next

If I thought it would be anything, I could with not a lot of trouble make a book with precise information with quite a span out of what i have done here, and I wouldn't be bullshitting anyone.

[jancivil]

without being too verbose.

He does get into such extensions in the book I downloaded.

"Too" verbose is clearly relative here. 100 pages cannot possibly be "too verbose" given the content.

I don't think you've actually looked at the book. it is extremely verbose for what it actually conveys.

[ghettosynth]

What I see more successful posters doing is recognizing that teaching is about bridging existing knowledge with new information while not alienating the student.

for a little bit of a start, here's what I do here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... w=previous

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &view=next

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &view=next

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &view=next

I'm not going to bother posting links where you are less than helpful.

If I thought it would be anything, I could with not a lot of trouble make a book with precise information with quite a span out of what i have done here, and I wouldn't be bullshitting anyone.

Like I said, there's talk, and there's do.