KVR Audio

Scoops · Post by **Scoops** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:41 am

Ok

I have a pretty good idea of what pedal point is. Very generally speaking:
Pedal Point is a sustained note or repeated note, normally in the bass, over which changing harmonies are played.

Anyone care to elaborate on this a bit?

Scoops

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:29 am

You've pretty much nailed it!

I guess the real question is 'how have composers in the past used pedal points?'.

Well, I know that I like to use them to create anticipation, building up to the final climax when the pedal is released and the bass moves to reinforce the harmony.

Here is a fantastic example of this very point, from Scriabin Op8 No12:

http://download.yousendit.com/336E243B4F22E85A

And another from Chopin Op9 No1:

http://download.yousendit.com/41D986F2341C0973

This isnt to say that pedals are always in the bass, or that that this is their only purpose. But I think that this is a very typical way to use pedal points.

Something very cool that I like is when the harmony becomes dissonant with the pedal. Sometimes it can even become like a polytonal struggle between the changing harmony and the static pedal! I dont have an example to hand, but Im sure Debussy did this in one of his preludes. I'll check...

TB

Scoops · Post by **Scoops** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:01 pm

tee boy wrote:You've pretty much nailed it!

I guess the real question is 'how have composers in the past used pedal points?'.

Well, I know that I like to use them to create anticipation, building up to the final climax when the pedal is released and the bass moves to reinforce the harmony.

Here is a fantastic example of this very point, from Scriabin Op8 No12:

http://download.yousendit.com/336E243B4F22E85A

And another from Chopin Op9 No1:

http://download.yousendit.com/41D986F2341C0973

This isnt to say that pedals are always in the bass, or that that this is their only purpose. But I think that this is a very typical way to use pedal points.

Something very cool that I like is when the harmony becomes dissonant with the pedal. Sometimes it can even become like a polytonal struggle between the changing harmony and the static pedal! I dont have an example to hand, but Im sure Debussy did this in one of his preludes. I'll check...

TB

Thnaks TB

How many use this technique?
Well, it's been used in in rock music a bit.

Led Zepplins Kasmir I think is a good example.

For those interested in hoaning thier pedal point skills, the KVR Monthly contest will be asking people to compose a 2:00 min piece that makes use of said technique.

Thanks

Scoops

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:29 pm

If you want to use a pedal tone, it's best to think of it in the same way you would think of any accented nonharmonic tone (sorry to introduce more terminology).

accented nonharmonic tones should not generally be used succesively, or the harmony starts to weaken or break down (or just sound bad). As a rule for pedal tones, you'd probably want to alternate between dissonance and consonance (pedal tone fits, pedal tone doesn't fit, pedal tone fits, etc.). Of course, this rule can be violated tastefully if you want to add increased dissonance, especially (as was mentioned above) for strong climax (ie pedal tone fits, pedal tone doesn't fit, doesn't fit, doesn't fit, powerful resolution and it fits)

me109 · Post by **me109** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:10 pm

A lot of Indian music uses this technique - think of Ravi Shankar. More well known examples to the western world would be some of George Harrison's stuff, such as Blue Jay Way and Within You, Without You.

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:10 pm

me109 wrote:A lot of Indian music uses this technique - think of Ravi Shankar. More well known examples to the western world would be some of George Harrison's stuff, such as Blue Jay Way and Within You, Without You.

Absolutely! Drones are pedal points.

TB

mistertoast · Post by **mistertoast** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:22 pm

Got very popular for steady, ominous intros in pop music in 70s, 80s.

Genesis--Turn it on Again.
Rick Springfield--Affair of the Heart.

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:31 pm

tee boy wrote:
me109 wrote:A lot of Indian music uses this technique - think of Ravi Shankar. More well known examples to the western world would be some of George Harrison's stuff, such as Blue Jay Way and Within You, Without You.
Absolutely! Drones are pedal points.

TB

indeed, a competion i may have a chance in...

now if i can just be bothered with a melody...

me109 · Post by **me109** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:40 pm

Also, you can do a lot with pedal point without resorting to dissonance. If you've got a C in the bass, it serves as the tonic in a C or Cm chord, it's the minor third in an Am chord, the major third in an A Flat chord, the ninth in a Bflat 9th chord, etc.

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:50 pm

last time I saw this mentioned anywhere the example that came up was a lot of Carole King's songs
it can add a lot of harmonic interest without much work as that stable bass can be the root, 3rd or 5th of the chord, but it really gets interesting when it's the 6th (7th or) 9th -- those can redefine the 'standard' chord as an extended chord

Caleb · Post by **Caleb** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:20 am

I sometimes do this myself, but I didn't know there was a term for it.
Is it more interesting than needle point?

Regards
Caleb

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:40 am

Scoops wrote:Ok

I have a pretty good idea of what pedal point is. Very generally speaking:
Pedal Point is a sustained note or repeated note, normally in the bass, over which changing harmonies are played.

Anyone care to elaborate on this a bit?

Scoops

Pedalpoint is distinct from other sustained notes by the fact that the note creates a dissonance together with the other parts. A sustaned low C against C, F, Adim, etc., is not pedalpoint. A pedalpoint creates a dissonance which must resolve, whereas an ordinary drone does not necessarily create dissonance with the harmony it accompanies. There are a couple of minor different classifications of pedalpoint in the organ literature.

DWb · Post by **DWb** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:58 pm

Does a pedal point normally resolve by the rest of the harmony coming back to meet it, or by the bass note and the harmony moving to something else? Or does either work?

james0tucson · Post by **james0tucson** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:18 pm

DWb wrote:Does a pedal point normally resolve by the rest of the harmony coming back to meet it

In baroque organ music and chamber music, yes, but it's not actually a "rule" or anything like that. I seriously plan to run this by a counterpoint professor, because I'm a little curious myself, and more than a little rusty on theory.

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:18 pm

> drones are pedal points

bingo!