I made a chord progression that i can't explain with my theory knowledge

[Martin Alexander]

@jancivil
From what you write and how you write it, i don't think anyone needs a degree in psychology to figure out, what the causes for your frustrated and aggressive behaviour are.

"Any harmony you can borrow from is found in major or minor"
Ok: D(m) - D7#5
Borrowed from major or minor ?

But of course you'll not going to answer that, because "today on the internet we can find all kind of jumbled up shite, it's an opportunity for any tosser to show he can prattle on about modes and sophistimacated harmonic jive". Right ?

Did you ever take into consideration, that everything we perceive is just our personal perspective and what may look sophisticated for you or me, can be very basic for someone else with a different point of view ?

Goodbye !


@DanRamone
Nothing is wrong in wanting to know how to compose purposefully and not by chance.
Don't let knock yourself off course and keep being curious !

[StudioDave]

Greetings,

Sorry, I had an analysis to offer but changed my mind.

Best,

dp

[jancivil]

@jancivil
From what you write and how you write it, i don't think anyone needs a degree in psychology to figure out, what the causes for your frustrated and aggressive behaviour are.

So you're not practicing psychology there? Elucidate me, please, what are the causes? Could it be there's too much bullshit about?
What is so aggressive about saying some things you wrote here won't work? Is it that you simply must be right?
You seem mean.

my explanation is that it's a bunch of semi random chords that you happen to find nice sounding. I suspect that's as much theory as is required in this instance.

That is not an explanation - just plain ignorance.

Physician heal thyself...

Did you ever take into consideration, that everything we perceive is just our personal perspective and what may look sophisticated for you or me, can be very basic for someone else with a different point of view ?

Well, I don't know what that's supposed to do here. Your perspective is faulty, and the explanation doesn't hold water.

Let's examine the thing you need for me to find impossible to answer:

"Any harmony you can borrow from is found in major or minor"
Ok: D(m) - D7#5
Borrowed from major or minor ?

You mean an augmented triad with a minor 7th, presumably. D F# A# C. Which mode is necessary? You tell me. Why do we need this to come from somewhere other than major or minor key.
Why can this harmony not belong to G minor? But show me how it has to be whatever mode it has to be from. Is there a context? I see a i, minor, now its third is major, tonal context is V of IV or V/iv. Or is that just supposed to be a trick question.

Actually it's typical of one of the whole tone scales {Bb C D E F# G#}. Anything goes, there; that would bely 'from major or minor key', sure, but there's no *borrowed*.
I never said all vertical phenomena in music have to belong to a key, for instance Messiaen's modes of limited transposition can't really (yes, he used some of it 'harmonically' or at least vertically and polyphonically).

There's no actual need to resort to *borrowing* from modes where there is a simpler explanation. See Occam's Razor.

You seem not to know what modes are FOR. Dm to Fm, HEY, voilà, here's an interchange with D Locrian. All we need is Ab. Every chord here means a new mode, so far. I was actually circumspect as I could be, but let me be straight: this is nonsense.
The 'progression' as given jumps around a bit, no one has explained it yet.

Modal music needs the 'tonic' to be perfectly clear and stable so the rest of the tones have a relationship with it, and vis a vis themselves based in it, to meaningfully be that mode.

[zethus909]

the progression works if you play inversions on some of the chords, by defining different bass tones you can make it work (these are just 3 note chords)
I would use flats not sharps to describe it.

Dm Fm C/Eb Dm
Dm Gbm/Db Dm Ebm

you are essentially in the phygian mode of D by starting on the D chord...but in reality, tonally(tonically) speaking you are in **G**minor as the minor tonic(Bb major tonic), so in major minor key terms you are in Bbmajor/Gminor. You can basically play the Phrygian mode of D(but really **G**Aeolian mode...**G**minor scale) as a solo throughout the entire progression. And that will help you hear how it is holding everything together.

You can resolve it at any time by playing a solid Gm with a G bass note. Or if youre feeling sassy then resolve to Bb. Full and complete resolution and very pleasing actually, nice progression. Very jazzy and dark.

[Bojmir Raj Raj]

In my opinion, analysis and theory aren't worth a darn unless you can run them backwards so to speak and get results that are audibly along the same lines.

So "chord planing" is just fine here, I think, especially if it gets you listening to some Debussy and all that good stuff.

The real secret though I think is the "sequence" nature of the thing, where if you take the first chord as tonic, it goes to the minor third above the tonic the first time around, and to the major the second time around. So there's a kind of logic and structure to it as a whole, not just random.

So, "chord planing with some kind of simple compare and contrast in the phrases" might be a good way to describe it!

I agree with jancivil that it's pointless to try to procrustean-bed the thing into modes, but at the same time I agree with zethus that if you wanted to do something like that, then it would be better to subsume the thing into a larger scheme, with flats instead of sharps.

BTW, not a new member here, this is "Aroused by Jar Jar", as you might guess from Bojmir Raj Raj being Jar Jar Rimjob backwards! Yeah I know that must appear to be a violation of the "no vulgarity" clause in the user agreement, but I think a billion Social Justice Warriors would side with me in the argument that it's completely "normal" and not vulgar at all to be aroused by the idea of a swamp-dwellling alien who can give you a rimjob from halfway across the room! Might as well use the username "Everyone", lol.

[zethus909]

sorry no one noticed my little clerical errors ,i wrote Gbminor instead of Gminor in two spots. G minor is the the relative minor key of Bbmajor not Gb minor I'm going to edit it now

[jancivil]

I wasn't even being flippant when I said 'make up your own theory'.
Note what it is you like, if there's some consistency to what you did and liked, maybe formulate something on the order of a principle and you have your 'music theory'.

There are principles from so-called 'classical music', or more to a point Common Practice Period or Common Practice Paradigm which is what most people receive as "Music Theory". Dm Fm Dm Cm etc definitely does not adhere to that. "Modal interchange" when it was a thing in the CPP was not about 'dorian', 'phrygian' and that. It meant you can take something which occurs in minor normally and stick it in a major context or vice versa.

If you want to take something which comes from a more exotic scale, there's more "interchange" available. But the seven ecclesiastical modes for our intents here are simply diatonic and it's useless to have seven names for one thing.
The Taming the Saxophone guy (among many, one supposes) calls 'minor' Aeolian. I linked to someone else hipping youse to the jazzers 'modal interchange'. In CPP, the term 'mixed modes' means mixing major and minor. Period. So I found a jazz guy I liked that called a spade a spade there.

If you have more exotic needs than Major & Minor, check some things out. But those seven 'modes' are not going to provide you with more than that by definition.

And they're not going to solve D7+5 'in D minor' if you really have to have A# rather than Bb.
D F# A# C. If you want a heptatonic scale to explain that, here: D E F# G# A# B C. It's not a mode. It's a synthetic scale. You can make them up. Messiaen invented 7 modes of limited transposition, non-diatonic by definition. You can make vertical objects out of that, out of Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Pattern. I encourage exploration.

There is a reason not to glibly state "mode" as was done in order to explain Fm as D Locrian etc, because it confuses people and leads them down a false path: 1) of seven names for one thing; 2) the pitfalls of glomming functional harmony onto modes; & 3) modes are impoverished as well by this. IE: there are no (dorian phrygian et al) modes in D minor. Mutually exclusive terms.

If the question originally had been 'what do I call this D augmented 7th thingy' I'd want the musical context. The guy said it stated D minor, which is a key, which indicates function and not mode, so if that's the deal V of IV or V of iv. If it's actual modal music, it isn't going to suddenly change. Sure, you could invent a synthetic scale towards modal music but once you state "D minor" and then F#, the mode includes both. Even still, you could make up a rule about why F or F# is rare and only does this certain bit, and the A# is rare or the A is rare, WHY NOT?

But you're giving us bullshit to explain F minor as D Locrian, and with no more than one note as your reason.

And I assure you that not every person that calls bullshit does it out of sexual frustration.

[Martin Alexander]

@jancivil

You invest high amounts of time and energy, because you think, that someone on the internet (!) is wrong.
You have nearly twelve thousand (!) posts in this forum alone, what suggests, that you do this since many years on a regular basis.

Why does that fly you into a fury so fast ? Is there nothing more meaningful, that you could do with that time and energy ? I hope you don't take this as an offense, but as a well-meant food for thought.

Wish you all the best !

Martin

[jancivil]

"you have nearly twelve thousand posts..." is what is known as the ad hominem fallacy. It addresses nothing of the argument but seeks INSTEAD to make me look a fool. It's around 3.5 posts a day. I also have a lot of music that took a hell of a lot of time to make. I haven't had a job since 1991! Chew on that a minute.

"fly into a fury so fast" is MORE PURE AD HOM and would indicate to me you've never dealt with anything resembling a fury. You're the very picture of Dunning-Kruger Effect. Some, should I be generous and say 'half-baked', ill-conceived poorly received shite from what one could only suppose was the internet. Because evidently you couldn't be bothered to find out but are so sure you have a right answer because it's from infallible you. This is a chief feature of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. I don't know that it's fatal, you could one day recognize it, I've actually seen it here on this very board.

You don't really know your shit (understatement) and posturing and flailing away isn't helping you seem like you do.

Ascribing "D Locrian" from the mere presence of Ab in an F minor chord (following a Dm) is RIDICULOUS. Who does that? OF COURSE you resemble my remark on internet music theory bullshit! I meant that shit, and since it hit a nerve, of course it offends.

"Is there nothing more meaningful, that you could do with that time and energy ? I hope you don't take this as an offense" the hell you say. It's totally passive aggressive impugning my integrity. I made some beautiful noise today despite the horrendous headaches due to my most recent fall. And remember, 3 and a half posts a day average, it can't have taken that much out of me.

"because I think someone on the internet is wrong" - oh yeah, I saw that cartoon too. It's funny because it's true. Now, there's a big difference between you doing that and me here, because I know exactly what I'm on about* and you've chosen to remain a posturing git. And again, pure ad hom, look at it; in a post that addresses NOTHING of the points I took the time to write up, and the laughable failure of self-awareness.

*: & illuminated this whole area - no, numerous areas of musical thought, and all you can take away is my "fury" and how much I put into it instead of... what exactly? Your arrogance and obstinance in remaining ignorant but right is astonishing even for this joint.

[stillshaded]

to me it just comes off as chromatic mediant stuff. This seems like the most useful thing to label it. I coul just hear it without music in front of me and easily label it in this way. I reckon I could come up with a key center but it would take thinking and not be very useful.

But, this is definitely what chromatic mediants sound like, so if you want this sound again, use them and that's all you really need to know. Anything else is just going to be overly complicated with diminishing returns IMO.

otherwise, this progression is kind of Bb major kind of thing i guess.

[jancivil]

actually don't understand in which key it is...
The chord progression is like this:
Dmin - Fmin - Dmin - Cmin
Dmin - F#min - Dmin - D#min (or C#min)

i'm breaking the rules

there is a rule behind all of this and i need someone who can explain it to me

Everybody who tha "rules" were, after the fact, based in broke the rules at some point.
You have a central D minor, I'd bet and you slded around this minor form looking for something. You don't have to justify it to anybody's rules book, and be skeptical of such a thing to begin with. CPP 'rules' if fully grokked would tend to guarantee sounding like 'classical music'. You will have failed at something you didn't even care about?

The one thing I had points taken off in my final final in 'harmony' (aka 'Honors Music Theory') was covered fifths in a German sixth resolution. In fact, this is a known thing, JS Bach did it, Mozart did it (seems like it's called Mozart fifths), Beethoven... Music is not football, there is no infraction that has to send you back 15 yds from scrimmage per se.

I found 'Bb' as a key or whatsit humorous as there is no Bb harmony here whatsoever. You have little to go on as to the authority of us typing at you here so be the f**k skeptical. Me, I'm *not* gong to lead you down some false path in order to sound smart, but still read it all as a person that does not jump into facile belief too readily.

[Aleatoriac]

Music is not football, there is no infraction that has to send you back 15 yds from scrimmage per se.

Quote of the year (4 days in!)

not every person that calls bullshit does it out of sexual frustration

You lot are on to me.

This is BULLSHIT!

Aroused by Jar Jar

There's my browser history exposed.

Oh well.

[jsaras]

Your progression fits perfectly within the Equal Interval System (EIS). These precise types of progressions are covered starting on page 25 in the second book of the course (Systrm of Progressions). I've taken your progression and applied EIS voice-leading to it. I then had some addition fun with it by changing the root tones.

SCORE: http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com/DanRamone.png
MP3 audio: http://www.audiorecordingandservices.com/DanRamone.mp3

If you added some rhythmic ideas and some melody to this, it would be even more amazing than it is already ;-D

[Monovibe]

Hi at all!
I found this chord progression that i made while ago, when i didn't know any music theory. Now that i'm a little more into study, i can't really explain what i really did. It's all minor and it sounds really haunting...i actually don't understand in which key it is...
The chord progression is like this:
Dmin - Fmin - Dmin - Cmin
Dmin - F#min - Dmin - D#min (or C#min)

Hi Dan,

what you did is modal interchange (NOT chord planing - that's about voice leading, not harmony).
That's why it sounds interesting and fresh.
It sounds haunting, because of the modes you borrow it from - see the attached file / table.

Also some progressions (like Dm to F#m) can also be seen as mediants in isolation, but in context i would go for modal interchange, since it's the most logical explanation and links perfectly to what the music makes you feel - haunting.

Nice progression, Dan.

Keep it up !


Martin Alexander

Modal interchange as I understand it is in regard to borrowed chords, typically from the parallel key but without modulation. What he's described here is chord planing/parallel harmony, interested in hearing why you stated that it wasn't and what you'd define as chord planing?

[Vertion]

2 cents: A sustained note/pitch is a recognizable repetition of a given length/duration. If you change this note or combine with other notes, there should be a relationship in length/duration using whole numbers and basic operations (multiplication/addition/division/subtraction). Harmonics demonstrate this as well, a fifth is the 3x of the fundamental, of course if you want the next fifth chromatically you have to divide by 2 (octave drop) first. 3x/2
I believe these relationships are more foundational then other theories.