How to leran to program groovy percussion parts?

[rod_zero]

This is something I have always struggled with, I know how to write a "standard" groove for techno or house, but when it comes to make it really groovy I always struggle.

So I was wondering which aproach do you think works best:

a) Actually learning to play drums (finger drumming).

b) Learning how to write MIDI parts with grooves, from tutorials, copyng parts, using other people MIDI loops.

[sjm]

Velocity and timing = groove. 9 times out of 10 the problem is robotic programming.

[vurt]

Velocity and timing = groove. 9 times out of 10 the problem is robotic programming.

this! even if you only finger drum some bits of the kit, maybe leave the kick and hihats input by mouse and then add the rest with "feeling"
learn to feel groove by tapping along to records you think have interesting grooves

[rod_zero]

I have tried nudging my drums, and using Ableton Live arrive functions, but I never come close to he feeling I get from professional tracks, right now listening to David August, the beats are quite simple but they have a lot of feel

[YoungCrocket]

This YouTube video has some great tips for adding interest and variation into EDM rhythm. It's 45 minutes long but it's well worth your time as they go into depth on many of the topics.


https://youtu.be/Vkcr_74HB4Q

[jancivil]

This is something I have always struggled with, I know how to write a "standard" groove for techno or house, but when it comes to make it really groovy I always struggle.

So I was wondering which aproach do you think works best:

a) Actually learning to play drums (finger drumming).

b) Learning how to write MIDI parts with grooves, from tutorials, copyng parts, using other people MIDI loops.

lacking a, one's efforts at b will tend to be woefully underinformed.

[sjm]

Even just spending a few hours learning how to play the basic rock beat can improve your understanding of drum programming. It also helps to play with real drummers and watch real drummers play.

What actually playing the drums will do is force you to associate motions with the act of hitting the individual drums. There is a fluid motion to a drummer's body when playing a beat, and different beats have different motions to them. If you can "feel" that motion, you can represent it in a DAW via programming. If you are just guessing, and not "feeling" it, it's a lot, lot harder.

This applies to any instrument really; it's a lot harder to program an instrument you have never played than one you have. You will be much better attuned to the subtleties of the instrument and will therefore notice when your programming sounds off. And you'll also be in a much better position to analyse what is off and thus fix it.

I'm not saying you need to first master the drums; that's impractical and unrealistic for most people. Instead, play someone else's kit for a bit, and get them to show you how to do the very basics. Focus less on being a proficient drummer, and more on the physical aspects of the playing - how different strength hits affect the tone of the drums, how your body automatically feels the groove and accents, and how that translates to physical motion. You should also notice how the drums are placed, and how that affects what is comfortable to play. Tom rolls generally go in one direction around the toms for example. Just randomly hitting toms in your programming is going to sound weird.

Also check out the way each element of the kit changes its timbre depending on how and where you hit it (edge/bell, rim/centre etc.).

Investigate the effect of hitting one element slightly before another one (i.e. both on the same beat, just very slightly staggered), and then switching around which comes first. Snare-tom sounds different from tom-snare. A good drummer uses this with purpose. Also try and learn the basics of the hi-hat pedal, it's absolutely fundamental to hihat grooving!

If you've understood what it takes to make the drums sing, you'll be much better placed to replicate that in your DAW. You will also be in a position where you can watch real drum tutorials, and apply that knowledge to your programming. It's not exactly the same as learning to play the drums, but it is learning how the drums are played.

[rod_zero]

Even just spending a few hours learning how to play the basic rock beat can improve your understanding of drum programming. It also helps to play with real drummers and watch real drummers play.

What actually playing the drums will do is force you to associate motions with the act of hitting the individual drums. There is a fluid motion to a drummer's body when playing a beat, and different beats have different motions to them. If you can "feel" that motion, you can represent it in a DAW via programming. If you are just guessing, and not "feeling" it, it's a lot, lot harder.

This applies to any instrument really; it's a lot harder to program an instrument you have never played than one you have. You will be much better attuned to the subtleties of the instrument and will therefore notice when your programming sounds off. And you'll also be in a much better position to analyse what is off and thus fix it.

I'm not saying you need to first master the drums; that's impractical and unrealistic for most people. Instead, play someone else's kit for a bit, and get them to show you how to do the very basics. Focus less on being a proficient drummer, and more on the physical aspects of the playing - how different strength hits affect the tone of the drums, how your body automatically feels the groove and accents, and how that translates to physical motion. You should also notice how the drums are placed, and how that affects what is comfortable to play. Tom rolls generally go in one direction around the toms for example. Just randomly hitting toms in your programming is going to sound weird.

Also check out the way each element of the kit changes its timbre depending on how and where you hit it (edge/bell, rim/centre etc.).

Investigate the effect of hitting one element slightly before another one (i.e. both on the same beat, just very slightly staggered), and then switching around which comes first. Snare-tom sounds different from tom-snare. A good drummer uses this with purpose. Also try and learn the basics of the hi-hat pedal, it's absolutely fundamental to hihat grooving!

If you've understood what it takes to make the drums sing, you'll be much better placed to replicate that in your DAW. You will also be in a position where you can watch real drum tutorials, and apply that knowledge to your programming. It's not exactly the same as learning to play the drums, but it is learning how the drums are played.

Thanks a lot for the advice.

[jancivil]

Even just spending a few hours learning how to play the basic rock beat can improve your understanding of drum programming. It also helps to play with real drummers and watch real drummers play.

What actually playing the drums will do is force you to associate motions with the act of hitting the individual drums. There is a fluid motion to a drummer's body when playing a beat, and different beats have different motions to them. If you can "feel" that motion, you can represent it in a DAW via programming. If you are just guessing, and not "feeling" it, it's a lot, lot harder.

This applies to any instrument really; it's a lot harder to program an instrument you have never played than one you have. You will be much better attuned to the subtleties of the instrument and will therefore notice when your programming sounds off. And you'll also be in a much better position to analyse what is off and thus fix it.

I'm not saying you need to first master the drums; that's impractical and unrealistic for most people. Instead, play someone else's kit for a bit, and get them to show you how to do the very basics. Focus less on being a proficient drummer, and more on the physical aspects of the playing - how different strength hits affect the tone of the drums, how your body automatically feels the groove and accents, and how that translates to physical motion. You should also notice how the drums are placed, and how that affects what is comfortable to play. Tom rolls generally go in one direction around the toms for example. Just randomly hitting toms in your programming is going to sound weird.

Also check out the way each element of the kit changes its timbre depending on how and where you hit it (edge/bell, rim/centre etc.).

Investigate the effect of hitting one element slightly before another one (i.e. both on the same beat, just very slightly staggered), and then switching around which comes first. Snare-tom sounds different from tom-snare. A good drummer uses this with purpose. Also try and learn the basics of the hi-hat pedal, it's absolutely fundamental to hihat grooving!

If you've understood what it takes to make the drums sing, you'll be much better placed to replicate that in your DAW. You will also be in a position where you can watch real drum tutorials, and apply that knowledge to your programming. It's not exactly the same as learning to play the drums, but it is learning how the drums are played.

This is just excellent, it should be seen by everyone who ever decides to create music from a DAW piano roll who comes at it from out of the blue.

[Jafo]

sjm's advice is indeed godly.

Listen outside your primary interests. You don't have to go far to find inspiration -- there are some amazing motherfsckers in every genre. I tend to prefer the "holy" Zep and Stones stuff (rock solid yet deeply rooted in a seething cauldron of feeling), but that's just me. Dig deep into some funk and jazz and West African grooves. Concussion is a voice -- let it sing.

Best of luck. Now go make some music!

[rod_zero]

I just downloaded melodics, seems I am going to dedicate my time to practice and practice until I can do it my self enough to understand it. BTW it now has also keyboard lessons.