4 part-writing exercise - need evaluation

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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I'm aware this is from the Piston. I'm not a big fan. Mark has said enough to where I don't need to get into it.

I prefer the real world to textbooks. This is abstract to a fault in my estimation. Sure, it could be an apt tactic to get people to really want to do something else (inversions). :scared:
Y'all may have heard this story three times already, but: I took diatonic and chromatic harmony concurrently at community college. In some situations this is what is done, where chromatic had the prerequisite of the diatonic. Not the same teacher. At first there was a textbook. This was used for more Intro To what you'll need to know before starting. Some people came in there, it being community college and not a focused kind of a school for music, with next-to-nothing in other words.
In the second year course there was no book that I recall. In the first year, it was all part-writing after the basics were established and some other rather off the track knowledge provided; now there was no textbook. The chromatic course was focused on part-writing.

Then I got into conservatory. There was a test upon entry; they're not going to let you avoid their 'music theory' coursework but I was placed in the Honors curriculum as though I would matriculate towards that quality of degree. This was the two years of "Theory" in one year. There definitely was no textbook. He would mimeograph certain things which exceeded the part-writing, but it was 90% focused part-writing. I met people from Oberlin and Eastman through there, which were not a great distance from Cinci, and it seems like one of these programs used Piston. I actually bought the book. I was happy to not be burdened. But despite my supposed matriculation, I considered the school to be more or less trade school, take what I need and leave the rest. I think I needed to be doing all of this CPP-type part-writing, but I wouldn't say that for anybody else.


NB: worrying a lot about covered fifths or parallel fifths is absolutely style-bound. I've said numerous times that I think, in general terms that these restrictions provide a good discipline for learning how to think coherently and as a way to obtain chops - at least in my experience where you had to get it done in the hour for examination - and train your mind but I don't agree very much with making people go to this extent. In more realistic exercises, the flaws in your chops will be exposed readily enough.
But do what you like. We're very different people, you and I. I'd be bored to death by now.

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jancivil wrote:I'd be bored to death by now.
Who said I'm not? :wink:

In the meanwhile, two more versions of the same piece...basically the same with small differences.
In the 2nd I didn't care much about the melodic leaps, as long as they don't exceed a 3rd (only one exception).
In the end I used 3 tonics in the I chord...I recall reading this somewhere.

My main difficulty, in this context, how can I connect both V chords near the end? I know...inversions....but, is there a way to do it in root position?

Thank you

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rbarata wrote:
My main difficulty, in this context, how can I connect both V chords near the end? I know...inversions....but, is there a way to do it in root position?

Thank you

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This bass line clearly asks for different chords. The classic would be I 6/4, V (or V7), I.

I'm not aware of ANY piece that have the V chord twice in a row, and in the root position.

I would not spend too much time with this exercize. It's musically absurd, and pointless.
Fernando (FMR)

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Answering to the posts covering info sources and books...
I agree Piston has a way to explain things (the deeper subjects are not clearly said but are more or less implicit in the text. So one have to work a bit to reach them as a conclusion).
Whenever I have a doubt I make researches in other books from other authors (pdf files, mainly) or internet sites. But, as you said, some of the "rules" are style-bound. This means I take the risk to read one thing in a book while its opposite is said in another one (well, this is not a risk... in certain subjects is almost certain) . This creates a lot of confusion.

So, I want to follow Bach's rules. He breaks a lot of them but I'm interested in learning what are his "foundations". Any good sites/books?

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rbarata wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:13 pm So, I want to follow Bach's rules. He breaks a lot of them but I'm interested in learning what are his "foundations". Any good sites/books?
Bach didn't wrote books. The rules he followed were those you can find in Fux treaty (adapted to the tonal environment). The best source is his chorale harmonizations as I told you already :shrug:
Fernando (FMR)

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Well, I'm not sure if I have enough knowledge to make and analysis of a Bach chorale. They all have, in one way or the other, things that I've never learned.

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rbarata wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:30 pm Well, I'm not sure if I have enough knowledge to make and analysis of a Bach chorale. They all have, in one way or the other, things that I've never learned.
Start with the simpler ones. If you have doubts, post them here. At least, Bach harmonizations make sense musically, and they are a pleasure to play and listen (at least to me).

Start with just the chorale melody and the bass. Play them both (or sequence them, if you can't play them). Listen to them melodically, and how they fit harmonically to each other. Then, try to fill the gaps (the other two voices, the inner voices). After that, compare what you did to what Bach did. Try to understand what is different, and try to find an explanation to what Bach did.
Fernando (FMR)

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At least, Bach harmonizations make sense musically, and they are a pleasure to play and listen (at least to me).
Not like mine! :D

Any good one you might sugest? He has so many and all of them seem difficult.

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Find "Wer Nur Den Lieben Gott Lasst Walten". He harmonized this chorale many times (even wrote a complete cantata based on it). It is a personal favorite. There is a simple harmonization in a book I have that has just the chorale and the bass, with the numbered chords, plus three variations. I can digitize te, if you want. The "symphony" that opens the cantata is especially remarkable, IMO. It contains the full chorale inserted. Each chorale phrase is preceded by a "variation" sung in "canon style" duet by the female (sopranos and altos) or male (tenor and bass) voices, after which the chorale phrase is sung in full by the four voices. The orchestra plays below this in an intricated contrapuntistical style all the time. You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmGoF_r9GwQ

Another good is "Herzlich Tut Mich Verlangen", which he used in several cantatas and also in the Christmas Oratorio. Again, there are many harmonizations. Look for the name on the net. You will probably find the original (neither of them are from Bach - the first is from Georg Neumark, and the second is from Has Leo Hassler). Several other composers also harmonized them, in simpler ways. Grab as many as you can, and compare them. This exercize of comparison is very important and will teach you a lot.

Note that neither of the chorales is tonal. The melodies are modal, from the transition period. Bach harmonized them in fully tonal form, which will also tell you how we can "twist" a melody into something it isn't original on.

When you are done analysing, pick one you find simpler, extract the melody and the bass and do as I told you.
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:29 pm I would not spend too much time with this exercize. It's musically absurd, and pointless.
Yep...classic Piston. He sometimes created these things to deliberately discombobulate his students (his words)...useful for some, maybe, but often just confusing and annoying! :0)

fmr wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:08 pm Bach didn't wrote books... The best source is his chorale harmonizations
Exactly!

I've been 'teaching' 4 part chorales on and off now for around 30 years, (it pays quite well!) and I learnt what I know very simply:

4 Part Chorales: Listened to Bach...Played Bach...Analysed Bach...tried to compose like Bach...experimented...Listened to Bach...Played Bach...tried to compose like Bach...experimented and so on...

OK, I had to do exercises for exams that I was forced to take, but NEVER did them beyond that at all...they're often quite FAKE!

I hadn't really got a clue at the beginning, ( I was only a teenager), but I learned bit by bit and developed my own approach..ALWAYS based on music for listening and performing wherever possible. Many, many times I got the school madrigal choir to sing through my attempts and give me honest feedback.

Bach rules (read that both ways):
One of the central principles Bach held to in writing music was that each voice should have a melody of its own, and not just simply exist to fill a harmonic need.

This principle hits you between the eyes / ears in his chorale harmonizations. Here, the genius of Bach can be grasped in a nutshell. Although he strove for independence of melody between the four parts, the manner in which the voices come together to form a coherent whole is testament to Bach’s greatness as a composer.

The voices complement each other in a way that goes far beyond a mere adherence to the traditional rules of counterpoint. If the melody sung by one voice lessens in intensity, another takes up where it left off, only to relinquish its responsibility to another when the time is right.

All the while, the harmony formed by the four independent voices creates a tapestry of sound that is unmistakably the music of Bach.

THAT'S IT! :0) That's what it's all about!

The only other BIG point for me is the bassline - which was obviously more central to the whole process in certain ways pre-Classical era changes...

While the melody was, maybe, more central to harmonic thought in Classical times and later, the bass line was more core in the Baroque era...I know I'm generalizing! :0)

Crafting a good bass line was the key, and in fact, often the first step in writing an effective piece of music. Given the rules of harmony at the time, it was not easy. Use of leading tones and second-inversion chords were greatly restricted by some thinking, and the structure of the top voice, which we would today think of as the melody, was strongly influenced by what was done in the bass.

For these reasons, most composers settled for a fairly tame bass line that formed the foundation for the piece but was overshadowed by anything else that was going on. Bach, however, was particularly gifted in making his bass lines intriguing melodies in their own right, and had no problem making them co-exist with the upper melodies.
rbarata wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:30 pm Well, I'm not sure if I have enough knowledge to make and analysis of a Bach chorale. They all have, in one way or the other, things that I've never learned.
Doesn't matter - they will help you to learn.

All of his chorales are available as MIDI files..often categorized into the more simple / more complex...

Here's a whole host of Bach MIDI stuff, including 15 'mixed' Chorales (you can hear which are the more simple ones):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/attpxd39vy4wfl4/bach.zip?dl=0

ALL his chorales are available as MIDI here:

https://www.classicalarchives.com/midi/ ... /2113.html

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Thanks for the extended (and informative) replies.
I guess I got dive into it without any fears. :D
fmr wrote:There is a simple harmonization in a book I have that has just the chorale and the bass, with the numbered chords, plus three variations. I can digitize te, if you want.
Yes, please, if it doesn't give you a lot of work. :)

Do you think I would benefit from doing it together with counterpoint study? I think both will complement.

About "Wer Nur Den Lieben Gott Lasst Walten", I got it from Riemenschneider and it seems to be in the key of B minor.
If we look into the first section only (first 3 bars), do you agree if I say that it is in Phrygian, more specifically a probable F# Phrygian Dominant?

Thanks for the tip on the MIDI files, Mark. Already signed up. :)

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rbarata wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:26 pm About "Wer Nur Den Lieben Gott Lasst Walten", I got it from Riemenschneider and it seems to be in the key of B minor.
If we look into the first section only (first 3 bars), do you agree if I say that it is in Phrygian, more specifically a probable F# Phrygian Dominant?
Yes, it is definitely in the mode of E (Phrygian). However, Bach treats the melody tonally. It's good for you to see how the mode is "destroyed" (in the good sense) by the harmonization.
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:56 pm Yes, it is definitely in the mode of E (Phrygian). However, Bach treats the melody tonally. It's good for you to see how the mode is "destroyed" (in the good sense) by the harmonization.
Mode of E (Phrygian)? Please elaborate...
Remember I'l talking about the first 3 bars only...

Better post my score...

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rbarata wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:17 pm
fmr wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:56 pm Yes, it is definitely in the mode of E (Phrygian). However, Bach treats the melody tonally. It's good for you to see how the mode is "destroyed" (in the good sense) by the harmonization.
Mode of E (Phrygian)? Please elaborate...
Remember I'l talking about the first 3 bars only...
Sorry, I meant the mode of D (first mode, AKA Protus, AKA as Dorian).

I am talking about the whole chorale melody. The melody starts with a jump from the fifth scale degree to the first scale degree. Then it rises diatonically up to the third degree to come back to the first degree and then it "draws" the V chord (so to speak) with the raised seventh degree. It's a melodic movement from the I to the V, that is classic in chorale melodies for the first phrase (arsis), with the second phrase closing with the opposite movement (from V to the I - thesis).

Note that the second phrase starts with the seventh degree of the scale lowered (natural), which is why, IMO, the melody is modal, with the seventh raised for the cadence (as it was usual in the "musica ficta").
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:47 pm
rbarata wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:17 pm
fmr wrote: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:56 pm Yes, it is definitely in the mode of E (Phrygian). However, Bach treats the melody tonally. It's good for you to see how the mode is "destroyed" (in the good sense) by the harmonization.
Mode of E (Phrygian)? Please elaborate...
Remember I'l talking about the first 3 bars only...
Sorry, I meant the mode of D (first mode, AKA Protus, AKA as Dorian).

I am talking about the whole chorale melody. The melody starts with a jump from the fifth scale degree to the first scale degree. Then it rises diatonically up to the third degree to come back to the first degree and then it "draws" the V chord (so to speak) with the raised seventh degree. It's a melodic movement from the I to the V, that is classic in chorale melodies for the first phrase (arsis), with the second phrase closing with the opposite movement (from V to the I - thesis).

Note that the second phrase starts with the seventh degree of the scale lowered (natural), which is why, IMO, the melody is modal, with the seventh raised for the cadence (as it was usual in the "musica ficta").
Fernando, I'm sorry but I'm not following you...
fmr wrote: Sorry, I meant the mode of D (first mode, AKA Protus, AKA as Dorian).

The melody starts with a jump from the fifth scale degree to the first scale degree.
The jump you're talking is F#-B, right?
If F# is the fifth scale degree and B the first it means you're thinking in terms of some B scale. Looking at the piece, probably B minor. So, why D Dorian?
fmr wrote: Note that the second phrase starts with the seventh degree of the scale lowered (natural), which is why, IMO, the melody is modal, with the seventh raised for the cadence (as it was usual in the "musica ficta").
lowered 7th degree of the scale=A
Raised 7th degree of the scale=A#

Again, this is indicative of B minor. Again, why D Dorian?

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