How to compose accompanying instruments?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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One of my latest challenges has been largely that I tend to make fairly good piano parts for songs that are, for my standards, exactly what I want to do (barring couple exceptions). These get accompanied by bass and drums, for which I also do a decent job now, at least in my opinion.

But an area where I lack severely is to actually utilize a wider instrumentation. It's easy to create an arpeggio for plucked instruments or just long, sustained chords for strings, or otherwise sustained pads. But beyond this, I struggle _a lot_. I believe counterpoint is one way of approaching this, but in the end, I found it really limiting and hard to actually utilize in what I want to do.

What should I do to improve this aspect? Of course compositions do not always require more than said parts, but some of the music I want to make really calls for additional flavor through accompanying parts!

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Sometimes there is no shortcut. With what you want to do, you need to open up some orchestral scores, study them, and use them as models to acquire the technique of orchestral writing. Also buy a book on orchestration, which will show you snapshots of how instruments are used in varying contexts. My suggestion is the book by Samuel Adler, which is on its 4th edition last I checked. You should also read the book by Rimsky-Korsakov -- an English translation is in the public domain now, so it can be found for free online.

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KBSoundSmith wrote:Sometimes there is no shortcut. With what you want to do, you need to open up some orchestral scores, study them, and use them as models to acquire the technique of orchestral writing. Also buy a book on orchestration, which will show you snapshots of how instruments are used in varying contexts. My suggestion is the book by Samuel Adler, which is on its 4th edition last I checked. You should also read the book by Rimsky-Korsakov -- an English translation is in the public domain now, so it can be found for free online.
Are you certain that orchestration books will be of any help? While I haven't gone depth into there at all, from the surface it looks like orchestration seems to have this sort of "functional" (no pun intended) approach to instrumentation very often. As in, each instrument serves some sort of a pre-defined purpose in order to make it all sound "huge". Me, on the other hand, I'm more revolved around pop music (loosely speaking anyway) and if I seek spatial richness, I prefer to rely on sound designing or just doubling up parts from instruments or something along those lines.

But of course, I could be wrong about this entirely

EDIT: Also I don't want to make it sound like orchestral music is all about some predefined roles to instrumentation. I'm sorry if I gave this impression to anyone, it's just music that I hardly understand insofar.

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I’m a little confused. Do you want to write orchestral music, or at least pop music with supporting orchestral instrumentation? If so, you do need to learn about the traditional roles and functions of the various orchestral instruments. Another term to search for is “part writing”.

If you aren’t actually interested in traditional instruments, you’ll still have electronic sounds performing similar functions.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

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deastman wrote:I’m a little confused. Do you want to write orchestral music, or at least pop music with supporting orchestral instrumentation? If so, you do need to learn about the traditional roles and functions of the various orchestral instruments. Another term to search for is “part writing”.

If you aren’t actually interested in traditional instruments, you’ll still have electronic sounds performing similar functions.
Oh sorry, the case is indeed that it's pop music with supporting instrumentation that isn't orchestral really. I.e. it might be an electronic guitar that is drowned in effects or a synth.

But I guess part writing it is then? I mean I could easily see how you can transcribe these traditional roles and functions even into electronic sounds. But I've never heard about "part writing" as a term, I guess that's the one.

But... how is part writing different from counterpoint?

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Okay holy moly, I'm just watching a lecture on part writing and this is blowing my mind. While I'm not sure yet, but it seems like this is exactly what I am looking for. Thank you so much

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There's a whole thread regarding voice-leading vs counterpoint. Unfortunately it degenerates into arguments about archaic rules in Fux' Gradus. Which you probably do not want at all anyway, unless you suddenly have to emulate Palestrina really, really well.

I'll reduce it, no es problemas: voice-leading as a term is tied in with vertical harmony (aka 'chords'); counterpoint may be independent of that and pure.

Part-writing is the writing of parts; it essentially means thinking linearly/horizontally; it could be harmonic voicing or straight linear writing. Writing a bass part is fundamental.

I would venture to say that a course in Common Practice Paradigm harmonic - 4-part harmony - writing, where you learn principles (and numerous proscriptions which serve that paradigm to the extent it may not serve other styles so well) is good for pretty much everyone's skill set in music.
I wouldn't get too bogged down in teh rules. Some of the rules were not always obeyed by the principal composers the practice would ostensibly be totally based in, to begin with. One broken rule (without getting into the weeds) is known as "Mozart Fifths". Everyone has perped here.

Whether or not you can access a great course in this without it being a real course in real time with people is not my bailiwick so much.

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jancivil wrote:There's a whole thread regarding voice-leading vs counterpoint. Unfortunately it degenerates into arguments about archaic rules in Fux' Gradus. Which you probably do not want at all anyway, unless you suddenly have to emulate Palestrina really, really well.

I'll reduce it, no es problemas: voice-leading as a term is tied in with vertical harmony (aka 'chords'); counterpoint may be independent of that and pure.

Part-writing is the writing of parts; it essentially means thinking linearly/horizontally; it could be harmonic voicing or straight linear writing. Writing a bass part is fundamental.

I would venture to say that a course in Common Practice Paradigm harmonic - 4-part harmony - writing, where you learn principles (and numerous proscriptions which serve that paradigm to the extent it may not serve other styles so well) is good for pretty much everyone's skill set in music.
I wouldn't get too bogged down in teh rules. Some of the rules were not always obeyed by the principal composers the practice would ostensibly be totally based in, to begin with. One broken rule (without getting into the weeds) is known as "Mozart Fifths". Everyone has perped here.
Okay, I've heard this before. A friend of mine talked sometime ago about how modern pop composers often "opt in" for horizontal approach for the singers in particular and I had to bother him to explain me the horizontal/vertical paradigm. He explained me about voice leading but I've sorta skimmed on that, pursuing other avenues. I mean, I get the basic concept; smoother intervals give smoother results, but I feel like I lack the more nuanced understanding in components of melodies (that involve more than just one sustained note, ya'know?) to actually apply that properly. But I've definitively heard plenty of music where even that much is of great use.

Either way, I think I know now where to start focusing next, probably on my own but hey, 7 years ago I didn't know if you could play notes simultaneously or what DAW even was. Not efficient way of doing things, but already got me somewhere.

And thanks for the explanation, always can count on you here it seems

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Melody, whether top line, bass line or inner voices, may be free but not so that it's disagreeable with the basis in harmony.
A suspension doesn't have to resolve as though during the duration of the chord. It can simply remain in "suspension" and go wherever seems right in terms of the line and the overall harmonic flavor or what-have-you.

We don't have to think of music in terms of solid blocks which are tangentially manipulatable just a little bit but having to obey the chord; harmony like that wasn't always a thing. I mean at all; it was an evolutionary step out of singing lines, essentially.

One thing you might try like right away is just hold a note - this is known as a pedal, doesn't have to be in the bass - throughout numerous chords changing and notice the tension, or color or however you want to frame the effect, for each.

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You want to learn how to compose accompaniments... well, play some music, study some notated music and you will learn. You can also learn it the hard way by composing your own music. Most people are getting away with just oom-pah or simple repeated syncopated piano/guitar paterns (house/pop/rock/funk), or very long chords as accompaniment without having to do anything with any complicated theoretical stuff.

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I had about 4 years of music theory in college (25 years ago) and look where it got me (absolutely nowhere). I loathe music theory.

I do have the benefit of being a guitar player so I know chords fairly well.

All composition that I do is based on improvisation.

One trick I use is to put all the progressions I want to use into Toontrack's EzKeys, choose some of the included midi patterns, and then import this into Logic. I can then copy out the various parts and assign them to different instruments. Then it's much easier to make adjustments whenever I need to. Sometimes I even steal those progressions off some found material and make minor tweaks to it before I put them into EzKeys.

I think it's easy to overcomplicate things. For me the important thing is to get a piece moving and feel that it's going somewhere.
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

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You should also see lessons and books in "Arranging", depending which ensemble you'd want to use. Most arranging books I've know are meant for acoustic instruments, but they can be used for synth or virtual instruments on a DAW. They will show you how to arrange a song for say piano, bass, drums, trumpet and trombone; or guitar, bass and clarinet, whatever...

Some books would be:
David Baker - Arranging and composing for the small ensemble
Sammy Nestico - The complete arranger
Don Sebesky - The contemporary arranger

Just google them and you'll find them around.

You can also follow scores on youtube of small ensemble arrangements and see how they made it.
Just search for any song "arrangement score" or something like that and you'll find tons! Arranging it's an art it itself! Have fun!!

Moon river for 3 flutes and piano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ_FxGmBKt8

Moon river for band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGXORzVuC0M

Camila Cabello for 4 instruments:
https://youtu.be/upmQWRFDoWI

Collier's Road not Taken:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gATNBcICpRI
Play fair and square!

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jancivil wrote:One thing you might try like right away is just hold a note - this is known as a pedal, doesn't have to be in the bass - throughout numerous chords changing and notice the tension, or color or however you want to frame the effect, for each.
Oh, yes, I know about pedal points, though I haven't thought of them much in such a context where they relate to harmony in particular, I've thought of them more as entities in their own right.

One of my recent finds actually employs a pedal point for 5 whopping minutes. I'm going to guess, due to style of music itself, that it wasn't really made with much awareness regarding how it relates to every chord — although I could very well be wrong too.

https://youtu.be/YRolIG493tk?t=382 (it does begin earlier already, but this is where it really comes out, in such an amazing way, I was actually surprised how much depth can just one note, sustained for 5 minutes, actually add, which I guess is due to changes in the context and how it relates to said context, music theory-wise and sound design-wise)

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I think Jan has it right - it doesn't need to be complex.

Leaving aside what the notes are for a second, you also need to be thinking what the characteristics of the instruments are, and how to effectively use them in a pop context. Think Motown brass and string stabs, or funk guitar, or strummed 12 string acoustic for example. Not particularly complicated, but effective and distinctive, and occupying their own space, whilst not impinging too much on the overall melody for the most part..which is where you come back to arrangement...

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Functional wrote: I believe counterpoint is one way of approaching this, but in the end, I found it really limiting and hard to actually utilize in what I want to do.
If you are doing species from Gradus ad Parnassum, it would be no wonder. At Fux' time, counterpoint was more or less synonymous with the techs of contemporary music in general and I would not expect much it to apply to modern pop music but a lot to classical music. In modern times, counterpoint is mainly used to designate the art of mixing different melodies into a polyphonic whole in contrast to supporting one melody only. The John Rahn quote from the wiki definition is fine enough to illustrate that purpose
It is hard to write a beautiful song. It is harder to write several individually beautiful songs that, when sung simultaneously, sound as a more beautiful polyphonic whole. The internal structures that create each of the voices separately must contribute to the emergent structure of the polyphony, which in turn must reinforce and comment on the structures of the individual voices. The way that is accomplished in detail is ... 'counterpoint'.[3]
Without going further into this, I'd say that this is not what you are looking for. You should rather study the art of harmonization of one main melody: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonization, where the supporting voices mainly are chord functions. There may be movements similar to those of counterpoint but the voices will mainly be designed to support one melody like in pop music.

For reasons unknown to me, some use "voice leading" to refer to counterpoint or something more restricted (or free?) than this, however the term actually makes a lot of sense with regard to leading voices in harmonization, e.g. what voices should be in top and bottom of chords according to which melody is supported and whether it is sung by a soprano, an alto, tenor or bass.

The term "part writing" does not sound like anything in particular to me, could be any type of part writing within any type of music as far as I am concerned.
Last edited by IncarnateX on Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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