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someone called simon · Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:22 pm

I'm teaching someone guitar. He is interested in modes, I don't think about things in modes really, though I know what they are to a certain extent in modern parlance. I don't want to complicate things or led him astray.

We've covered basic major and minor, Ionian and Aeolian. And wise or not I was going to look at Lydian and Mixolydian next. (He knows that each mode starts on a different degree of a major scale so I'm not messing with his head too much by going out of sequence)

I thought of doing it this way to show how you might solo over a I IV V pattern. Some might say you were playing in one of those modes over the IV and the V, but IMHO it's really not helpful to think that way. You're just playing in the standard major key of the song over whatever changes there are. And to illustrate the difference I was looking for pop/rock songs in Lydian, and the ones often suggested don't really seem to be, to me.

For example 'Dreams' by fleetwood mac. I certainly don't hear F as tonal centre, though the song starts and ends on F chords. If you were to just listen to the melody you'd think Am or C, or I would. I'd pick G mixolydian over F Lydian if I had to.

The verse of "here comes my girl' by Tom Petty is also mentioned, but again that seems to me to be just a long period of tension before resolving to the tonic in the chorus. I don't think I wouldn't call it Lydian.

The Simpsons theme has a flat 7 so that doesn't count.

The only thing I've heard in my short search that 'sounds' Lydian to my ear is the verse of 'possibly maybe' by Bjork. But the chorus changes that.

Does my way of thinking about modes pass muster here?
Maybe technically 'Dreams' is Lydian, is that all that's needed to be called Lydian? Even though (to my ear) it doesn't 'sound' Lydian? Whereas the verse of Possibly Maybe does ... ???

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:51 am

I have no idea why you would think Dreams is Lydian. It has a minor feel. I'm not going to transcribe it or listen to it extensively but so far it's 1 2 b3 4 5 b7, I haven't heard a sixth degree at all; minor pentatonic add M2.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:56 am

In the Tom Petty, the beginning with the I and then that II over the 5 and 8ve open strings suspended from the I is assuredly Lydian. BUT then it moves like that was IV and V, doesn't it. But for me it works as Lydian up to that point.

So that, as an example for a chordal vamp for Lydian soloing is perfect, that annoying bit after notwithstanding. That BTW and note well is a great ruination of a mode.

someone called simon · Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:05 am

I only see it listed as an example (re Dreams). I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head that sounded Lydian, and it came up most frequently in a search, but it would never have occurred to me to think of it as such.
I'm glad you wouldn't call such a thing Lydian, I think I'm on the right track. Just because one of the most prominent chords in the song has a sharp 4 isn't enough reason to call something Lydian.

I guess you're taking the 1 as the first note of the melody? as the 1 chord (in this analysis) hardly appears in the song at all, just a bit in the instrumental break in the middle. The chords are just 6 to 7, repeated (Fmaj7 to G in the supposed key of Am, rather than the sometimes suggested key of F Lydian)

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:08 am

I and II for Lydian; you have to be careful that I is I in every example.

IE: I and II, don't do II with a -7 and make it a dominant 7th; C Lydian is just G major now.
And note this ambiguity: if you're not certain of I, C and D might actually be VII and I and it's D mixolydian.
I and (b)VII suits Mixolydian; with the feeling of Lydian on the bVII.

CF: Inca Roads solo.

https://youtu.be/F6YKJX-dXIM?t=101
^click on the link, taking you the cue

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:13 am

someone called simon wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:05 am(re Dreams)

I guess you're taking the 1 as the first note of the melody? as the 1 chord (in this analysis) hardly appears in the song at all, just a bit in the instrumental break in the middle. The chords are just 6 to 7, repeated (Fmaj7 to G in the supposed key of Am, rather than the sometimes suggested key of F Lydian)

I sang it back after playing enough back in the youtube to myself and that's what I got. I generally concur with your observations, it is kind of odd in that 'i' chord is evaded as it is. VI7 VII as in 'natural minor'.

Don't trust the internet!

Lydian is nonsense for this number.

someone called simon · Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:37 am

That was cool. I need to listen to more Zappa.

Watching straight from the solo section, the II chord sounded like 'home', so more mixolydian to my ear, but played from the top it was the I, so Lydian. And then it branches out everywhere ...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:48 am

Yes, solo section is in D. FZ likes F# over the C, he likes Lydian but it's in D. I've seen people say C Lydian for it numerous times. From the top it's a solid C 'tonic', yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWVlUuik72w
original as on the record. originally it was a live TV broadcast for the record he took an edited live solo from Helsinki and cut it in. Here someone made a valiant effort to transcribe it and it scrolls by on the screen.

resynthesis · Post by **resynthesis** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:27 pm

Don't forget The Simpsons theme

Krakatau · Post by **Krakatau** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:41 pm

Traditionnel Manding musics from Western Africa has many tunes assimilated to a Lydian mode :

https://www.facebook.com/alexandre.borc ... 1540901680

excuse me please · Post by **excuse me please** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:58 pm

Yesterday (F major):

| F | Em7 A7 | Dm |

The Lydian mode is just a suggestion, the second chord (Em7) heavily leans towards F Lydian. Although the song actually modulates from F major to D minor. However, Em7 (E G B D) lets it undecided where the modulation is going until A7 (dominant of Dm) sets in. NB the substitution of the 'natural' Em7b5 chord, (E G Bb D) makes a big difference.

It's explained in this interesting video (at 5:47):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w-c_Q0jY0Gs

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:00 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5trNs7M3MU

nineofkings · Post by **nineofkings** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:09 pm

A grunge classic with sections entirely in Lydian. Hear it clearly in the vocal melody at :36, but it starts with the guitar at :24. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvkgk8w16HM

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:54 pm

Nice examples. I want in, though I offer lesser exotics and more trivialities. But OP, did you know the lydian mode is also callled the film score mode or film music mode or even a “Hollywood scale”? Here are some vids explaining some of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6FbC96CX4E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIq2Ghl8iS0

More examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkLyLRAyjNw

shonky · Post by **shonky** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:11 pm

resynthesis wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:27 pm Don't forget The Simpsons theme

Came here to suggest it, beaten to it twice already

'modes' in popular music. Lydian examples? ughhh