Where to start for Jazz

[Forgotten]

Solos in jazz are a whole other kettle of fish. You'd be surprised at how often different scales are used by different soloist within the same piece. There are certainly no 'rules' about soloing in jazz (other than being harmonically consistent with the accompaniment).

[jancivil]

Well, the solo is instructive as to melody over the changes.
Miles plays the ii chord arpeggio over V in the beginning, note that effect; note where he stays with the 11th over Cm7 as ii later; and how he likes E over G minor as the i, poignant.

And note the changes given.

[msf sadib]

Well, the solo is instructive as to melody over the changes.
Miles plays the ii chord arpeggio over V in the beginning, note that effect; note where he stays with the 11th over Cm7 as ii later; and how he likes E over G minor as the i, poignant.

And note the changes given.

Jan one question.Can the chords that tonicizes a chord be considered as passing chords?

[jancivil]

I think that’s not a terrifically useful term, I wouldn’t worry about it.
I ii iii IV, it may just be there is a musical reason for each. I don’t know.
Music Theory labels, I forgot a lot of it.

[msf sadib]

I think that’s not a terrifically useful term, don’t worry about it.
I ii iii IV, it may just be there is a musical reason for each. I don’t know.
Music Theory labels, I forgot a lot of it.

Jan I hope you're not bothered with my questions.
Edit:in this picture I didn't understand the secondary ii,v example.I mean E is not the minor of D minor so why is there E minor instead of Em7b5
also,
in the cycling secondary dominant part I'm guessing that Dm7-G7 is ii,v of C maj 7;Em7-A7 is ii,v of Dm7,but what cycling relation does Cmaj-B7 has to Em7 or A7? can it be that there is only secondary dominant relation only between B7 and Em7? and thus the cycles continues or something more to that?

[jancivil]

Not at all.

Well, I suppose one could argue ‘Em7 came from C major, so...‘.
The stronger case IME is for the real ii of D minor, for jazz it’s that little bit more propulsive.

[Forgotten]

Well, the solo is instructive as to melody over the changes.
Miles plays the ii chord arpeggio over V in the beginning, note that effect; note where he stays with the 11th over Cm7 as ii later; and how he likes E over G minor as the i, poignant.

And note the changes given.

Jan one question.Can the chords that tonicizes a chord be considered as passing chords?

A passing chord is not likely to be played for very long, and is really there as an interesting way to connect chords that have harmonic importance in a piece of music, but they themselves don't always (but may) have importance harmonically.

A passing chord might be diatonic, secondary dominants can be used as passing chords, and a passing chord can also be chromatic. The problem with using chromatic passing chords is that the larger the group of musicians playing, the more chance that a chromatic chord might sound dissonant.

[msf sadib]

Not at all.

Well, I suppose one could argue ‘Em7 came from C major, so...‘.
The stronger case IME is for the real ii of D minor, for jazz it’s that little bit more propulsive. I think it’s possible that whomever made the chart missed that bit.

in the cycling secondary dominant part I'm guessing that Dm7-G7 is ii,v of C maj 7;Em7-A7 is ii,v of Dm7,but what cycling relation does Cmaj-B7 has to Em7 or A7? can it be that there is only secondary dominant relation only between B7 and Em7? and thus the cycles continues or something more to that?

[msf sadib]

Well, the solo is instructive as to melody over the changes.
Miles plays the ii chord arpeggio over V in the beginning, note that effect; note where he stays with the 11th over Cm7 as ii later; and how he likes E over G minor as the i, poignant.

And note the changes given.

Jan one question.Can the chords that tonicizes a chord be considered as passing chords?

A passing chord is not likely to be played for very long, and is really there as an interesting way to connect chords that have harmonic importance in a piece of music, but they themselves don't always (but may) have importance harmonically.

A passing chord might be diatonic, secondary dominants can be used as passing chords, and a passing chord can also be chromatic. The problem with using chromatic passing chords is that the larger the group of musicians playing, the more chance that a chromatic chord might sound dissonant.

So I should try adding chromatic passing chords as little as possible or there is any other solution to make it work?

[Forgotten]

Well, the solo is instructive as to melody over the changes.
Miles plays the ii chord arpeggio over V in the beginning, note that effect; note where he stays with the 11th over Cm7 as ii later; and how he likes E over G minor as the i, poignant.

And note the changes given.

Jan one question.Can the chords that tonicizes a chord be considered as passing chords?

A passing chord is not likely to be played for very long, and is really there as an interesting way to connect chords that have harmonic importance in a piece of music, but they themselves don't always (but may) have importance harmonically.

A passing chord might be diatonic, secondary dominants can be used as passing chords, and a passing chord can also be chromatic. The problem with using chromatic passing chords is that the larger the group of musicians playing, the more chance that a chromatic chord might sound dissonant.

So I should try adding chromatic passing chords as little as possible or there is any other solution to make it work?

There's no necessity to add them at all, and it really depends on whether all instruments in a piece play the chromatic chord (in which case it's not a problem). Improvised passing chords are where it will become a problem if not all the musicians are aware that the chord is coming.

[msf sadib]

Well, the solo is instructive as to melody over the changes.
Miles plays the ii chord arpeggio over V in the beginning, note that effect; note where he stays with the 11th over Cm7 as ii later; and how he likes E over G minor as the i, poignant.

And note the changes given.

Jan one question.Can the chords that tonicizes a chord be considered as passing chords?

A passing chord is not likely to be played for very long, and is really there as an interesting way to connect chords that have harmonic importance in a piece of music, but they themselves don't always (but may) have importance harmonically.

A passing chord might be diatonic, secondary dominants can be used as passing chords, and a passing chord can also be chromatic. The problem with using chromatic passing chords is that the larger the group of musicians playing, the more chance that a chromatic chord might sound dissonant.

So I should try adding chromatic passing chords as little as possible or there is any other solution to make it work?

There's no necessity to add them at all, and it really depends on whether all instruments in a piece play the chromatic chord (in which case it's not a problem). Improvised passing chords are where it will become a problem if not all the musicians are aware that the chord is coming.

Thanks for the information.Can you please explain the last example-Chromatic Cycling Secondary ii, V

[jancivil]

But the question pertains to the secondary function we’re focused on atm. No, there is little likelihood for there to be any passing chord in this context. (ii, iii, IV, V of x?)

I had intensive training in harmony, at no point was consideration of passing chords a thing. Tends to be perfectly obvious, not of pressing interest.
Again, while one may consider eg., I and IV the essential bits, and ii and iii defined as ‘passing’, is there necessarily no musical reason (like the melody, harmonized) for those choices?

[Forgotten]

Look at the interval between the first column and the second - Em7 to EbM7 - that's a minor 2nd interval, so it's chromatic in this context.

I think passing chords are more of an ornamentation than anything else.

[jancivil]

So I should try adding chromatic passing chords as little as possible or there is any other solution to make it work?

There’s no formula, this is a contextual musical consideration. The ii and V function is not ‘passing’. For the inserted secondary function there probably isn’t time for more, it’s already getting pretty busy.

“Em7 to EbM7 - chromatic” - Yes.

Particularly w. the flat five principle it’s already just about maximally chromatic.

[msf sadib]

Look at the interval between the first column and the second - Em7 to EbM7 - that's a minor 2nd interval, so it's chromatic in this context.

I think passing chords are more of an ornamentation than anything else.

So Em7 here has no relation with the A7 here?