Chords for Miyako Bushi scale

[vurt]

obvs. its not going to be japanese, but for pop/dance/electronic it will be close enough for anyone who doesnt listen to much actual japanese music to make the association.
like whole tones even on an electric guitar evole arabia...

So how are those japanese melodies made in those Hollywood or European movie score?

without knowing the particular scores in question i cant say
it would probably depend how authentic it needs to be.
for a pure samurai film, id imagine theyd get someone who understands japanese music.

for something more modern, it could be either.

[msf sadib]

obvs. its not going to be japanese, but for pop/dance/electronic it will be close enough for anyone who doesnt listen to much actual japanese music to make the association.
like whole tones even on an electric guitar evole arabia...

So how are those japanese melodies made in those Hollywood or European movie score?

without knowing the particular scores in question i cant say
it would probably depend how authentic it needs to be.
for a pure samurai film, id imagine theyd get someone who understands japanese music.

for something more modern, it could be either.

Can't it be achieved with this scale?

[Forgotten]

Don't worry about using a particular scale, listen to something and try to replicate the feel of it. vurt is probably right in that anything done by Hollywood probably isn't based on anything authentic, and is more just a combination of various sources.

[BertKoor]

So how are those japanese melodies made in those Hollywood or European movie score?

You know, there are some people (comediants) that can pretend to speak a foreign language. How do they do that? How do you imitate? In learning foreign languages the difference is made between passive (listening, reading, understanding) and active (speaking, writing, dreaming).
The imposters can fake that, but who cares.

Music is a language as well. Know it passive first before applying it actively makes a lot of sense. Each style of music can be seen as a different language with its own grammar and rules. Although the same alphabet (notes) is shared, rules differ a great deal.

If you try to learn English, Japanese, Arabic, Russian within one year, you certainly will fail.

[BertKoor]

it's a pentatonic scale (penta is greek for 5; so it has 5 notes) and the D and A should not be in there.

Well I see 8 notes in this scale.Maybe it's a octatonic

Count them again. Which note has what number?
Do the same for C Major scale. How many white keys are in an octave?
Do the same for the scale made up of all black keys. What's that scale called again?

[Jafo]

I've come across this scale called Miyako bushi scale.It's a Japanese scale. the notes from the C miyako Bushi scales are C Db D F G Ab A.How do I make regular chords from this sort of scale actually ?

I like the two half-steps in there, the Db and D and the Ab and the A. Makes me think of music east of the Aegean.

In no way is that scale pentatonic. Or perhaps it can be analyzed as a mediant-free pentatonic with chromatic alterations.

As far as chords go, you can't make a traditional European-style triad on the tonic -- no third, as has been pointed out. You can make a few other triads on other intervals, however: DbMaj, Ddim, FMaj, Fmin. The only thirds present are D(b)-F, F-A(b), and A(b)-C. You aren't going to get much variety there.

You could try building chords on different intervals -- maybe clusters of 2s, 4s, 5s, even 7s. But that'd be as alien to Japanese music as it is to mainstream (stereotypical) European music. Nor would you have a lot to build those on.

So let's focus on what we've got instead. If nothing else, you could write any of today's pop music melodies with this -- they're all just one note tonic repeats with another note or two for emphasis. HHOS

I think the D/Db and A/Ab could offer the best possibilities for chord sequences or melodies -- going from flat to natural could change moods. Maybe One section could focus on using Db and Ab, then a contrasting section could use their natural counterparts. (By "section," I mean anything -- one chord to another, one phrase to another, whatever.)

A lot of traditional European folk music can be done, but it would be of the drone and chanter style. Not much of a limitation: you still have two notes with flat/natural, and people got away without thirds in harmonies for quite a long time.

But to answer your question, no, you can't do tonic or dominant chords -- the central foundation of formal Western music. (Or at least the stuff they primarily teach in theory classes.) You'll either have to cheat with the scale, or with the chords.

[declassified]

Try using two different scales, depending on whether your melody moves up or down. For example, moving up you could restrict it to: C D F G A. And when moving down, use only C Db F G Ab. And make the Db and Ab "more flat" by detuning them slightly down.

If you find this too restrictive, you could allow pitch-bending from a scale note into any neighbouring +1/-1 or +2/-2 semitones. This is done on a Koto to reach in-between notes that aren't part of the current tuning.

This "flattening" and pitch-bending help to get the kind of "fragile" sound.

[ChameleonMusic]

Traditionally, Miyako bushi is mainly aimed at Koto and Shamisen performances and such music is very much based around melodic content and NOT chords / harmonies.

It is normally used around the root note of D, so would use these notes:

D Eb G A Bb

Using C as the root note that would be:

C Db F G Ab

With C as the root, if you really want to experiment with a more chordal approach then you could try some of these:

Open 5th: C and G

Open 5th: Db and Ab

These will give you plenty of 'space' for melodic invention and exploration as you omit the 3rd.

Alternatively...

Full triads:

C Eb G

Db F Ab

You can also try moving the 'root' by starting with an F minor chord - F Ab C (open 5th F and C )

Frankly any combination of the above 3 chords can produce something quite interesting if you get the melodic content to flow appropriately.

Does the triad formation like "major" or "minor" structure goes well with any ethnical mode? Or is there any other Formula? What I mean is that will major minor concept sound good on any ethnical modes

What i suggested above is a simple way of added some 'western' harmonic ideas alongside that particular traditional Japanese scale.

Musical ideas from different cultures are merged very successfully all the time in all sorts of ways, but there is always compromise of some sort...

Example:
Many years ago I performed a live improvisation with a wonderful Koto player - me on a grand piano! She totally readjusted the intonation and tuning of the whole instrument to fit the piano which could not be easily retuned. We played an a style vaguely based on some traditional japanese Koto music structures (alternating between instrumental and vocal sections as she also sang).

But....

With my piano style of playing using both harmonic and melodic ideas + the adjusted tuning it wasn't really very traditional overall, but didn't really matter...it was a great experiment!

2nd Example:
I dueted with a Shakuhachi player on my muted trumpet in the same concert...two pieces:

1st: Pure japanese intonation with me concentrating and bending notes like f#ck to try and adjust.
2nd: 12 bar Blues scale with added trad Japanese intonation - weird, but it worked and we had great fun!

In a studio context all of the above is much easier to manipulate as you can tweak the tunings of your samples in Kontakt or whatever software you use.

Unless you're gonna hire some serious traditional Koto, Shamisen and Shakuhachi players etc ...I wouldn't worry about authenticity, just take some ideas, experiment and create some music!

[ChameleonMusic]

I've come across this scale called Miyako bushi scale.It's a Japanese scale. the notes from the C miyako Bushi scales are C Db D F G Ab A.How do I make regular chords from this sort of scale actually ?

I like the two half-steps in there, the Db and D and the Ab and the A. Makes me think of music east of the Aegean.

In no way is that scale pentatonic. Or perhaps it can be analyzed as a mediant-free pentatonic with chromatic alterations.

As far as chords go, you can't make a traditional European-style triad on the tonic -- no third, as has been pointed out. You can make a few other triads on other intervals, however: DbMaj, Ddim, FMaj, Fmin. The only thirds present are D(b)-F, F-A(b), and A(b)-C. You aren't going to get much variety there.

You could try building chords on different intervals -- maybe clusters of 2s, 4s, 5s, even 7s. But that'd be as alien to Japanese music as it is to mainstream (stereotypical) European music. Nor would you have a lot to build those on.

So let's focus on what we've got instead. If nothing else, you could write any of today's pop music melodies with this -- they're all just one note tonic repeats with another note or two for emphasis. HHOS

I think the D/Db and A/Ab could offer the best possibilities for chord sequences or melodies -- going from flat to natural could change moods. Maybe One section could focus on using Db and Ab, then a contrasting section could use their natural counterparts. (By "section," I mean anything -- one chord to another, one phrase to another, whatever.)

A lot of traditional European folk music can be done, but it would be of the drone and chanter style. Not much of a limitation: you still have two notes with flat/natural, and people got away without thirds in harmonies for quite a long time.

But to answer your question, no, you can't do tonic or dominant chords -- the central foundation of formal Western music. (Or at least the stuff they primarily teach in theory classes.) You'll either have to cheat with the scale, or with the chords.

Miyako bushi is 100% pentatonic...those notes quoted originally are NOT the notes of the Miyako bushi!

[Jafo]

Miyako bushi is 100% pentatonic...those notes quoted originally are NOT the notes of the Miyako bushi!

Your ire would be better directed at the person responsible for the misunderstanding.

[ChameleonMusic]

Miyako bushi is 100% pentatonic...those notes quoted originally are NOT the notes of the Miyako bushi!

Your ire would be better directed at the person responsible for the misunderstanding.

Dude, there was no ire whatsoever...never is from me!

i said the notes "originally quoted" were incorrect - that is clearly explaining that the original poster made the error and not you! In an earlier post I had already mentioned to him (as had others) that it was a pentatonic scale, so your incorrect announcement that Miyako B was NOT pentatonic was only going to confuse new readers to the thread.

A polite suggestion - always read through a music theory thread before diving in with loads of ideas.

[Functional]

obvs. its not going to be japanese, but for pop/dance/electronic it will be close enough for anyone who doesnt listen to much actual japanese music to make the association.
like whole tones even on an electric guitar evole arabia...

So how are those japanese melodies made in those Hollywood or European movie score?

Somewhat racist stereotypical motifs, that's how. In the past, film composers, all of them, had to learn these. They are just cultural associations evolved in time that have nothing to do with the actual musical cultures of whatever they supposedly represent.

Furthermore, it's not so much "Japanese", it's more like "asian", that particular common motif is used to represent any place east from the urals. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrEOZk23FzA

[ChameleonMusic]

obvs. its not going to be japanese, but for pop/dance/electronic it will be close enough for anyone who doesnt listen to much actual japanese music to make the association.
like whole tones even on an electric guitar evole arabia...

So how are those japanese melodies made in those Hollywood or European movie score?

Somewhat racist stereotypical motifs, that's how. In the past, film composers, all of them, had to learn these. They are just cultural associations evolved in time that have nothing to do with the actual musical cultures of whatever they supposedly represent.

Furthermore, it's not so much "Japanese", it's more like "asian", that particular common motif is used to represent any place east from the urals. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrEOZk23FzA

Sadly, this is all 100% true!

'Ethnic' music in the whole media industry from Hollywood down is often full of awful cliches / tropes that are now so well embedded that anything that moves away from them is rejected on the grounds that it "isn't authentic"!!!

2008: I created genuine Albanian traditional musical ideas with real musicians from the area for a play about asylum seekers - it was initially rejected by the director as "Nice music Mark, but it just needs to sound much more like it comes from that Balcan area of Europe - bit more authentic edge and it would be perfect". We had a 'discussion' about authenticity and to his credit he went with it and used the music as it was when I explained that the examples he was providing as authentic were cliched 'pap'!

Sadly, the public now also recognizes these tropes as the 'real thing' as well!

[msf sadib]

Miyako bushi is 100% pentatonic...those notes quoted originally are NOT the notes of the Miyako bushi!

Your ire would be better directed at the person responsible for the misunderstanding.

[declassified]

When it comes to these scales, different websites contradict each other. According to Wikipedia, Miyako-Bushi is pentatonic.

Why is there not a single right answer? Usually these scales are derived from Koto tunings, by just playing all strings from the lowest to the highest, writing down all the notes, and then "wrapping" them around into a single octave. For example, in han-kumoi-choshi the strings are tuned to:
G, C, D, D#, G, G#, C, C#, F, G, G#, C, D.

We could say that the scale is C, C#, D, D#, F, G, G#. But here we lose parts of the character: We can now play chromatic melodies like C, C#, D, D# which don't appear in the Koto tuning. Also, the scale lets us play e.g. C# in the bass, or D# in the high register, which also wasn't in the Koto tuning.

Summary: By only thinking in scales inside one octave, we lose important parts of the original character. Instead, look at the tuning of Koto strings, and what melodies you can write within that.