"Solarstone - Release": how would you analyze the harmony?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
jancivil
KVRAF
23337 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:59 pm

Knock yourself out. You could have turned it around and are being reasonable at this point, I don't know because I don't open posts up by the muted. Life is short and I'd guess I was old before you were born.
We have all been noobs. I remember the first time I got very excited over how stacking perfect fourths sounded, or P4s linearly, at 18 at the community college. One would hope a person with the curiosity has done a search on the 'net and found something that actually is that thing. Or, that expectation may be unfair, it might be beyond you.

Here's the thing, and feel as free to ignore the advice as you did to send that obnoxious pagro PM: the thing to do is to ask a question about your interest. It would be a good ice breaker, get to know the room, have a genuine exchange of ideas with people who do have it. Even so, I showed you. Are you interested? I mean in more than hearing yourself talk.

Being argumentative and seeing what bullshit sticks when you toss it compounds the problem.

N__K
KVRist

Topic Starter

97 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:04 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:59 pm
I don't know because I don't open posts up by the muted.
I'll ask why are you still posting in this thread if you can't even see what I write - but since you won't see this, forum absurdity continues :D



jancivil wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:59 pm
I remember the first time I got very excited over how stacking perfect fourths sounded, or P4s linearly, at 18 at the community college.
I've had a similar experience, at a different age in a different situation. It was a wonder to discover.
Incidentally, I was recently watching the Pixar movie "Soul" with a person who was not into making music as such. In the movie, the main character (a jazz pianist) mentioned playing chords with fourths, and to explain the significance of that, I described them as "a world between chords".


I also remember when as a kid I discovered (0,3,5), (0,2,7) and (0,5,7) in various voicings, and then started reading some quite traditional Western theory books according to which none of those were "chords" in their own right - first one not supposedly even existing as such, and the two latter ones being considered as needing to resolve to something else.

My personal perceptual take on it, from early on, was that those are often far more interesting to use in their own right, rather than leading them to (0,4,7) or (0,3,7). So I started to wonder, how can something exist and sound good, but remain undescribed in books which claim authority on methods of making music, either implicitly or explicitly.

The answer, of course, is that I had non-ideal books for my needs; and that there are various musical theories which concentrate on various things; and that laws of physics and math are the only objective aspects of music theories, with most of everything else being a matter of personal, tribal, disciplinal etc. subjectivity.

Since I'm more on applied than theoretical side of things, my relationship with theory has been varied since then - from being oblivious, to having become a "theory fellow" in eyes of many of my peers.



One of key moments in my musical development was guidance [from a teacher] which could be summed up to "it's important to learn what has been discovered previously; but it is also OK to rediscover and recontextualize".
Support of that teacher ended up in me achieving some of my musical dreams. Make of that what you will.

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:25 pm

N__K wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:04 pm
jancivil wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:59 pm
I don't know because I don't open posts up by the muted.
I'll ask why are you still posting in this thread if you can't even see what I write - but since you won't see this, forum absurdity continues :D
I am not sure, Jan refers to you. I know that Jan had NERF PROTOSS on mute before his display of delusions here and we quoted him. So it could still refer to him.
Last edited by TribeOfHǫfuð on Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:52 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:43 pm
"don't be fooled by Tribe, though, he's not an expert on anything lol."
How the f**k would you know?
He doesn’t have to. In the age of internet-solipsism, pretending is enough; other people do not really exist, therefore his reality is THE reality and delusions cannot happen. He lives in a world where he is the real boss around here and his entry level chord theory plus random superficial (and missapplied) wiki-pick ups equal advanced music theory.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:39 am

And OP. Despite promising the opposite, I have a little more to say as part of summery of what is said:

1. Your little tune is easily understood in tonal terms of movements of non resolved sus chords. It needs no pitch degrees or anything resembling set theory to be understood, if that is what you are reinventing.

2. It has a sense of tonic due to the bass, which spoils the point of quartal or other seriel terms as a practise avoiding that.

As is now, it is but unresolved harmonies, but how about making a melody and hear what such an unresolved one will do to it?

Alternatively, you can experiment with simple movements of stacks of fourth and avoid sense of tonic if you want to get closer to a true quartal mood, as already pointed out (which also would include the augmentet fourth in quartal practise).

So, here are some concrete and applied advices.

Whatever your theory system, I do not engage in it anymore. Honestly, I think it is overkill and needless reduction/elimination of tonal terms for what your music is, but if it helps you, it helps you, tho I would personally not advice it to others.
Last edited by TribeOfHǫfuð on Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

jancivil
KVRAF
23337 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:59 am

N__K wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:04 pm
jancivil wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:59 pm
I don't know because I don't open posts up by the muted.
I'll ask why are you still posting in this thread if you can't even see what I write - but since you won't see this, forum absurdity continues :D
Forum absurdity? Who the f**k are you to police tone, 'intolerant of diversity' guy? This is exactly it.

It begins with an absurdity, some very dull track in a Youtube announced like everyone is going to care, and the immediate reveal of a total poseur once we do hear it. There's no harmony to analyze, or I figured a minute and a half of one sonority and one bass note was me giving it too much time already.

Obviously, I saw the posts in quotes. Which I said very plainly.
I saw enough of your comebacks, certainly. I saw this in a quote. I feel free enough to post, and again who the f**k are you here? What's your contribution to the knowledge base here? Fvcking zero.
Again, how hard is it, when encountering new people - on a forum where chances are pretty good you're not the expert - to ask questions? You're at a stage where a smart person will listen and take notes, but you just want to hear yourself talk at a room.

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Hink
Rad Grandad
35018 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:12 pm

Words are a barrier to help-seeking and a motivator for making discrimination acceptable.
Mad Pride
If there is a direction to mankind, it ought to be a coming together Brian May

jancivil
KVRAF
23337 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:13 pm

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:25 pm
N__K wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:04 pm
jancivil wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 7:59 pm
I don't know because I don't open posts up by the muted.
I'll ask why are you still posting in this thread if you can't even see what I write - but since you won't see this, forum absurdity continues :D
I am not sure, Jan refers to you. I know that Jan had NERF PROTOSS on mute before his display of delusions here and we quoted him. So it could still refer to him.
"You could have turned it around and are being reasonable at this point" is not a hope I would have for Mr TOSS.
Hope is def. vanishing here with <Intolerant of Diversity Guy>. Some divergences are just rookie mistakes, kid.

jancivil
KVRAF
23337 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:17 pm

anyway let's talk the theory and forget this noise.
Tribe O has asserted that quartal practices will make a solid tonic problematic.

I think we could analyze what I did with Satie's quartal planing and see if that holds.
Actually the distance between the stacks is the theme in the "Theme" portion of Act I of le fils des étoiles, and it's pentatonic.
le fils.jpg
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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:20 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:13 pm
"You could have turned it around and are being reasonable at this point" is not a hope I would have for Mr TOSS.
True. Got a point there :hihi:
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

jancivil
KVRAF
23337 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:21 pm

https://y2u.be/rWvoJTwEqr8

NB: the fifth group of those, the pattern moves down a minor third*. But it's a tone up from the last group (2nd of its phrase, down a 4th).
It feels like a modulation, doesn't it? It is a *new pentatonic set.

Then the last one seems final. How could that be? It sets up that middle section perfectly.
Can this be taught?

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:34 pm

Donno, but I do not hear anything I would recognize as a solid tonic. The intervals do not invite for it to return to an obvious point, but sound like they could fly anywhere they like to me. For someone rooted in diatonics, it does not take much more than parallel movements of such stacks to make me feel I lose ground and the world opens. This in contrast to the OPs example, which has tonic written all over it, imo.
Last edited by TribeOfHǫfuð on Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

jancivil
KVRAF
23337 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:45 pm

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:49 pm
N__K wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:18 pm
Sus4 and sus2 are inversions of a stack of perfect fourths.
Nope. A quartal harmony is build up in intervals of forths and
No, they're correct on that point: the meaning is the same as inverting any harmony, not a literal inversion of the block.
C D G's first inversion is a quartal construction D G C (which, note well, is not quartal usage per se). But to say D G C has the same meaning as C D G is worse than not recognizing what eg., a 1st inv. I harmony means in the musical thought. It's two different roots for one object. C G D is the second inversion of the sus2, a new root and its own quality. 3 different objects which will work differently rather than be interchanged (although amid a total pandiatonic wash this may all be, well, a wash).

jancivil
KVRAF
23337 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:58 pm

I worked as though the last of the three notes in the second iteration of the motif was kind of a 1.
so it goes IV-I, IV-I. Then it does that a minor third down. Follow the line. F G Bb; C D F.
which is not to say it sounds tonal or modal, but there is some fairly *orthodox* basic material here.

this was 1892, dig. The last section is incredible. I simply played the thing, it's such a gem.
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:00 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:45 pm
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:49 pm
N__K wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:18 pm
Sus4 and sus2 are inversions of a stack of perfect fourths.
Nope. A quartal harmony is build up in intervals of forths and
No, they're correct on that point: the meaning is the same as inverting any harmony, not a literal inversion of the block.
C D G's first inversion is a quartal construction D G C (which, note well, is not quartal usage per se). But to say D G C has the same meaning as C D G is worse than not recognizing what eg., a 1st inv. I harmony means in the musical thought. It's two different roots for one object. C G D is the second inversion of the sus2, a new root and its own quality. 3 different objects which will work differently rather than be interchanged (although amid a total pandiatonic wash this may all be, well, a wash).
The context is what matters to me as to conceive it as sus or stack inversion. In a quartal context they do not rely on a tonic and do not invite to resolvement in my ears. Again in contrast to the op’s tune, which is basically tonal but does not resolve.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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