"Solarstone - Release": how would you analyze the harmony?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
jancivil
KVRAF
23335 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:03 pm

well what I'm saying to you is that a '1' area or the next area at another level doesn't have to be about resolution. In the abstract, the block is the same block a fourth down. It's more of a panorama of the 12 than tonal, but it isn't like atonal music either.

This is the amazing thing about this work, in 1890-92 here's a musician that went absolutely beyond interest in resolution, and in one fell swoop.

BUT! why does the last one set up the next section. It somehow functions.

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:08 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:03 pm
well what I'm saying to you is that a '1' area or the next area at another level is not about resolution. No, they are color.
That I take for granted with such genres. That is why I tend to call them “paintings” when known structures are abandoned or loosened and the world becomes indeterminate.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

shawshawraw
KVRist
235 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:46 pm

N__K wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:30 am
I've done the transcription to the point at which I'm willing to let it be. As far as harmony goes, it corresponds to most significant peaks in the spectrum and should be accurate enough for basic analysis.
Thanks for posting back! You're right that the last bass note is Bb. I was fooled by the F note in the pickup position.

N__K wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:30 am
2) Bars 131-138 (3:56 - 4:10)

Code: Select all

Cm add2    -  Db  sus2   -  Bb   m7sus2

i add2     -  bII sus2   -  bvii m7sus2 

0°(0,2,3,7)-  1°(0,2,7)  -  10°(0,2,7,10)

There's an interesting part. The Cm add2 you listed (which btw is conventionally called Cm add9) is not on Phrygian. There's a shade of mode change going on. I didn't listen to around the 4 min mark earlier, but I hesitated to say the music was in C Phrygian when phrases were established with Csus4 or Cm add11. The omission of 2nd degree suggests a natural D, not a flat D, to my ears.

The chordal movement alone is not suggesting a strong tonal centre, so I'd weigh more on the metering and compare everything else with the C root, because it happens on Bar 1s and does not kick off a tonal resolution.
N__K wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:30 am
A point in favor of "C as tonic" interpretation would be that tracks in these genres usually* begin and end on same chord or bass note, to facilitate harmonic mixing by DJs. That chord or note tends to become "tonicised" in perception of the listeners. In this track, it is clearly C sus4.
This is cool to know and totally makes sense!

NERF_PROTOSS
KVRist
108 posts since 14 Jan, 2020

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:04 pm

N__K wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:37 am
I wasn't part of modes discussion, so not taking sides there.
the 'discussion' mostly involved them shitting on another poster for being bewildered at having jargon thrown in his face, instead of having his question answered, then shitting on me for actually responding to his question, a question about harmony, by daring to talk about harmony. the audacity! the arrogance! the incompetence! then jan did the classic jan one-line-quote strawman move and Tribe did some clowny Tribe stuff and the thread was locked. hey ho, life goes on.
jancivil wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:41 pm
the arrogance of some people here is actually quite astonishing.
lmao. tell me about it.

muting is good advice, though, I didn't know I could do that. praise Hink!

N__K
KVRist

Topic Starter

97 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:17 pm

shawshawraw wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:46 pm
There's an interesting part. The Cm add2 you listed (which btw is conventionally called Cm add9) is not on Phrygian. There's a shade of mode change going on.
That's a good catch! I had missed the significance of 2 being there. "Forest for the trees", I suppose.

I even went through the spectrum again today, and yeah - as far as my analyzer, eyes and brains can be relied on, there's a peak at D right above Middle C.
The nearest reference / sanity check point I have for that is at bar 115 (3:27) where the guitar is playing accompanied only by the bass. Since the bass is in C, and its 5th partial is E, I figure that the D must be coming from the guitar, which is also playing at bar 131.

So - unless my transcription is indeed in error somehow - that's another interesting property of this composition. Thanks for pointing it out!

And yeah, the 9 vs 2 thing in chord symbols is one of my personal hangups - I prefer to choose smaller number unless the voicing is an actual ninth. Which is sometimes hard to decide too. Anyway, as long as the message gets across :)




jancivil wrote: You're at a stage where a smart person will listen and take notes [...]
I am taking notes of all things I find interesting here. I am thankful for topical parts of your posts.

As for my intellect, I believe I'm not very smart, on average. I've had my moments in life, but then again so has Jar Jar Binks, whom I've grown to identify with more and more each year. But that's my problem, not yours ;)

N__K
KVRist

Topic Starter

97 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:29 pm

NERF_PROTOSS wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:04 pm
hey ho, life goes on.
Yeah, I think I can relate, at this point :)

Regarding muting, I've tried to avoid it due to risk of echo chamber effect. Not muting anyone so far, on any forum.
That said, I have needed some extra doses of tea and chocolate past two weeks, but I guess that's a small price for some life lessons, all things considered :D

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:42 pm

NERF_PROTOSS wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:04 pm
the incompetence
….yes, yours is really hilarious vis-a-vis your arrogance as seen here and elsewhere, but keep pretending, deluding yourself will be your only way to cope with reality. :tu:

* * * *

This thread could have died naturally, but the the OP started second round by announcing PMs in public, besides from making all kinds of primitive psycho-bull on us in the chord thread and this one, because he did not like the answers. Originally, we just took his approach to the test in both threads, but results were not appreciated, so he went long textwalls and mail complaints. Note that this has not changed our answers.

Personally, I have given him two concrete ways to proceed, either trying a melody or actually moving stacks for a quartal sound if that is what he wants, but I am not going to stretch concepts for him and call things anything else but what they mean.
Last edited by TribeOfHǫfuð on Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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Hink
Rad Grandad
35012 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:50 pm

I see
Words are a barrier to help-seeking and a motivator for making discrimination acceptable.
Mad Pride
If there is a direction to mankind, it ought to be a coming together Brian May

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TribeOfHǫfuð
KVRian
806 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:31 pm

Yup, and you can check my posts in both threads and point me to the abusive parts if there should be any. They are critical but on topic. The rant on page 2 was due to his public announcements of PMs, but nevertheless it was on topic too. My final advices as to melody, stacks, and my honest view on his system is given on page 4 in this thread. Fair and square.
Last edited by TribeOfHǫfuð on Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

N__K
KVRist

Topic Starter

97 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:08 am

jancivil & TribeOfHǫfuð vs. me is a case of musical practice, personality and generational differences, among other things.

They have indeed made some efforts which I am thankful for.

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Hink
Rad Grandad
35012 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:09 am

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:31 pm
Yup, and you can check my posts in both threads and point me to the abusive parts if there should be any. They are critical but on topic. The rant on page 2 was due to his public announcements of PMs, but nevertheless it was on topic too. My final advices as to melody, stacks, and my honest view on his system is given on page 4 in this thread. Fair and square.
ty for defining your threshold, duly noted.
Words are a barrier to help-seeking and a motivator for making discrimination acceptable.
Mad Pride
If there is a direction to mankind, it ought to be a coming together Brian May

User avatar
Hink
Rad Grandad
35012 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:24 am

NERF_PROTOSS wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:04 pm
N__K wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:37 am
I wasn't part of modes discussion, so not taking sides there.
the 'discussion' mostly involved them shitting on another poster for being bewildered at having jargon thrown in his face, instead of having his question answered, then shitting on me for actually responding to his question, a question about harmony, by daring to talk about harmony. the audacity! the arrogance! the incompetence! then jan did the classic jan one-line-quote strawman move and Tribe did some clowny Tribe stuff and the thread was locked. hey ho, life goes on.
jancivil wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:41 pm
the arrogance of some people here is actually quite astonishing.
lmao. tell me about it.

muting is good advice, though, I didn't know I could do that.

muting isnt good advice on KvR, my advice would be go with your gut :tu:

If muting also muted quotes perhaps, but as it is now it seems one spends more time opening muted posts because they are following/chasing the quotes. IMO muting is rather useless in general though, cathartic at best (like the old days of slamming down the phone when one hung up angry), it might feel good in the moment but at least for me simply walking away or letting them have the last word is far more empowering.
Words are a barrier to help-seeking and a motivator for making discrimination acceptable.
Mad Pride
If there is a direction to mankind, it ought to be a coming together Brian May

jancivil
KVRAF
23335 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:56 am

it cuts down on seeing a whole lot of crap, believe me
here is a very good example. it 'feels' better than to see it all glaring and scroll-worthy.

I'm not actually curious to see what n_k had to say about a PM, I'm not going into detail myself. It was seriously f**king egregious and pure personal attack, and they really dressed it up with teh psychobabble. I don't have to take shit from people and have very low regard for this telling people their feelings about things, let alone impute their reason for their choices. It's f**king gross.

I tried to get it back to some kind of affirmative interest finally BUT NO. The degradation of the discourse by one Mr TOSS is to ultimately be ignored as much as possible afaic. Crass and juvenile for one thing.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

jancivil
KVRAF
23335 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:06 am

I'm not opening up posts to see more, or lying that I don't. 'feels better in the moment' - ok let's just try to feel as bad as possible then. It relieves pressure. :shrug:
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:00 pm
jancivil wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:45 pm
TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:49 pm
N__K wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:18 pm
Sus4 and sus2 are inversions of a stack of perfect fourths.
Nope. A quartal harmony is build up in intervals of forths and
No, they're correct on that point: the meaning is the same as inverting any harmony, not a literal inversion of the block.
C D G's first inversion is a quartal construction D G C (which, note well, is not quartal usage per se). But to say D G C has the same meaning as C D G is worse than not recognizing what eg., a 1st inv. I harmony means in the musical thought. It's two different roots for one object. C G D is the second inversion of the sus2, a new root and its own quality. 3 different objects which will work differently rather than be interchanged (although amid a total pandiatonic wash this may all be, well, a wash).
The context is what matters to me as to conceive it as sus or stack inversion. In a quartal context they do not rely on a tonic and do not invite to resolvement in my ears. Again in contrast to the op’s tune, which is basically tonal but does not resolve.
in itself these 'chords' do not add up to a tonic in the simple sense, no. But I look at a landscape and determine landmarks and area. I'm just trying to expand the outlook. It's far from *atonal*, this piece.

jancivil
KVRAF
23335 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:17 am

The takeaway there might should be that the inversions of that shape aren't like inversions of tertial harmonies. Roman Numeral with figured bass will not sort meaning there, there are three different roots.

Generally it's probably true enough that going genuinely quartal messes with a sense of locality or lends to rootlessness in the general meaning.
But McCoy Tyner was using it functionally quite a lot of the time (maybe we stop short of saying 'full quartal' then).

So we have let's say F B E A. A jazz guy may well see that and create a G13 harmony: G Db F B E A.
So depending on the bass function that block means 7 9 13 or (Db)7 #9 b13.

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