Musikmesse 2012: Propellerhead to share "exciting news"

[decalogue]

Quite frankly, this whole App Store thing grosses me out. It grosses me out with Apple, but they are the $500 billion gorilla, so they aren't about to be stopped. But Reason is nowhere near as big a player. Obviously, it is perfectly within Propellerheads' rights to develop their own proprietary plugin format, and charge a premium to be able to develop for that format. It is also within the rights of plugin developers to refuse to play along. Personally, I think that this proprietary plugin/app store trend would be bad for the industry as a whole, and I don't feel like supporting it, or doing anything that would encourage such behavior.

Ouch, you've obviously made up your mind about this already! All right, naturally I'll respect that and take your words above to imply that your decision is anchored in a much wider ideological context than just business perspectives.

Still I have to say: DAMN, it really hurts to hear that we're not going to see your excellent Valhalla plugins in the Reason rack. We'll have to continue using them on Reason DSP chains through ReWire then.

[xh3rv]

Quite frankly, this whole App Store thing grosses me out.

I agree a bit on Apple in terms of grossness - I hate iAdvertising, I think a lot of junk gets put up on the app store, Apple doesn't really care about quality control, and particularly anything that crashes they're fine with as long as it still sells, IMO. There are stupid money traps out there.

I find similar things are true in VST land already, from a consumer perspective. I almost bought a Cryosonic product once ... Your stuff isn't this and I have no regrets there. Much respect for any developer's perspective and thanks for the post.

[decalogue]

Somehow I get this feeling that the average Reason user is more of a a "leftist" type of mentality who expects everything to be a free lunch. Introducing "capitalist" diversity into their beloved rack of equality will probably stir up some emotions. I mean, just look at all the bitching that went on before Props finally decided to launch the "Pay what you want" campaign half a year ago.

Oh dear, what a silly presumption. Where did you get that from? Do you really think they launched the "Pay what you want" campaign without thinking it was a smarter move to do it and get more people to move to the new version instead? Maybe they realized they did miscalculate initially and wanted to use it as a way to broaden their user base in the long run, and get people to be able to buy into the RE-plugs = even more money. Isn't that still in line with capitalism, or is that some "leftist" shit to your eyes? Geez.

I'm sorry, I didn't quite get your point. Naturally the PWYW campaign was calculated from a viral marketing perspective to increase the profits. What else?

All I'm saying is that it remains to be seen to what extent loyal Reason users are willing to reach for their wallets to support 3rd parties, when a lot of the original appeal for Reason was to have a self-contained package deal of racks.

Re: "leftist". All right, maybe not the best phrasing there, but based on my own experience with quite a few Reason users over the years, I conclude that some of them are the kind of hipster lifestyle people who buy into Reason as a gadget as much as they buy into certain kind of fashion and adopt a postmodernistic leftist-ideological framework. To me it just doesn't seem very obvious that such a Reason user - who on the one hand complains about paying something like $99 for an upgrade - would, on the other hand, refrain from complaining about paying an equal amount (or more) for selected RE plugs.

It's not like Reason is Pro Tools. It's was originally marketed as a poor man's studio - infinite racks and synths for every bedroom producer. That will change now. This is Reason - the rich man's edition. You get a fatter rack with a fatter wallet. It's as simple as that.

[FaX]

Somehow I get this feeling that the average Reason user is more of a a "leftist" type of mentality who expects everything to be a free lunch. Introducing "capitalist" diversity into their beloved rack of equality will probably stir up some emotions. I mean, just look at all the bitching that went on before Props finally decided to launch the "Pay what you want" campaign half a year ago.

Oh dear, what a silly presumption. Where did you get that from? Do you really think they launched the "Pay what you want" campaign without thinking it was a smarter move to do it and get more people to move to the new version instead? Maybe they realized they did miscalculate initially and wanted to use it as a way to broaden their user base in the long run, and get people to be able to buy into the RE-plugs = even more money. Isn't that still in line with capitalism, or is that some "leftist" shit to your eyes? Geez.

I'm sorry, I didn't quite get your point. Naturally the PWYW campaign was calculated from a viral marketing perspective to increase the profits. What else?

All I'm saying is that it remains to be seen to what extent loyal Reason users are willing to reach for their wallets to support 3rd parties, when a lot of the original appeal for Reason was to have a self-contained package deal of racks.

Re: "leftist". All right, maybe not the best phrasing there, but based on my own experience with quite a few Reason users over the years, I conclude that some of them are the kind of hipster lifestyle people who buy into Reason as a gadget as much as they buy into certain kind of fashion and adopt a postmodernistic leftist-ideological framework. To me it just doesn't seem very obvious that such a Reason user - who on the one hand complains about paying something like $99 for an upgrade - would, on the other hand, refrain from complaining about paying an equal amount (or more) for selected RE plugs.

It's not like Reason is Pro Tools. It's was originally marketed as a poor man's studio - infinite racks and synths for every bedroom producer. That will change now. This is Reason - the rich man's edition. You get a fatter rack with a fatter wallet. It's as simple as that.

I am more than willing to reach for the wallet.
I would have bought Logic next month and the AAS modelling suite but am instead putting a large slab of funds aside for Q2 and Reason 6.5 and have paid plenty for good refills - TPSD's VAST, Bitword Wavefront, Rackflip Refills, Galbanum Rex Loops, Flatpack and so on and so forth and have little problem justifying purchases that make my user experience a whole lot better.
In all honesty had Valhalla been available for the price it now is + 30% on top of that so his profit cut remained the same I would have paid that too as it would shit over the REV7000 in a myriad of ways.

[valhallasound]

Ouch, you've obviously made up your mind about this already! All right, naturally I'll respect that and take your words above to imply that your decision is anchored in a much wider ideological context than just business perspectives.

Still I have to say: DAMN, it really hurts to hear that we're not going to see your excellent Valhalla plugins in the Reason rack. We'll have to continue using them on Reason DSP chains through ReWire then.

I don't know if I have made my mind up about anything. I requested the Re SDK a few days ago.

I'm just very upset about this whole App Store thing, and what it could mean to the future of software development as a whole. I'll work on an articulate statement of why I am concerned about the rise of the App Store model in the next few days. Right now, typing is kinda hard (I accidentally chopped off a fingertip yesterday, so I am in a bit of pain).

Apologies to Reason users and Valhalla users if I have caused offense. My intent wasn't to diss Reason as a program, so much as to express concern about the business model, and what it implies for the future of software development in the audio industry.

Sean Costello

[JD Gaffe]

From my perspective the biggest addition to making an Re plugin is that the copy protection actually works doesn't it? Reason 6 is without cracks or pirates, and the company that is doing it for them is offering like 15k bucks to whoever can crack it. Considering there's just about a crack for everything else out there, I have to imagine small developers will really like this.

[decalogue]

I am more than willing to reach for the wallet.

[..]

In all honesty had Valhalla been available for the price it now is + 30% on top of that so his profit cut remained the same I would have paid that too as it would shit over the REV7000 in a myriad of ways.

I agree with you 100%. And hopefully the vast majority of Reason users are like you and me - and so they'll conclude that having 3rd party developers in the Reason rack is worth paying for.

As I said earlier, I'll probably buy every single RE plugin on the market. I've decided to invest at least $1000-$2000 for buying RE plugs this year. I just hope there is enough developers to take my money.

[decalogue]

I don't know if I have made my mind up about anything. I requested the Re SDK a few days ago.

I'm just very upset about this whole App Store thing, and what it could mean to the future of software development as a whole. I'll work on an articulate statement of why I am concerned about the rise of the App Store model in the next few days. Right now, typing is kinda hard (I accidentally chopped off a fingertip yesterday, so I am in a bit of pain).

Apologies to Reason users and Valhalla users if I have caused offense. My intent wasn't to diss Reason as a program, so much as to express concern about the business model, and what it implies for the future of software development in the audio industry.

Ouch. Sorry to hear about your fingertip accident and your pain.

Great to hear that you haven't actually finally made up your mind here, that certainly ignites new fires of hope...

I'm looking forward to read your statement.

[ShawnG]

the reaction from props own forum seems overwhelmingly positive, so do with that what you will, some of that is pure fanboyism of course, but most are looking forward to the prospect. my experience with reason "users" over the years has been that a sizable proportion of them never actually bought the product to begin with, so that might have a bit to do with the perception. (of course most of them are still using 5 since the ignition key has yet to be cracked.) if the prices in the props app store are low and we get some good plugs in there, this could be a new lease in my relationship with reason. reason has always had a few things that kept me from embracing it fully, but if that's rectified by quality plugs (I want my komplete in there! and amplitube!) I may use it much more.

[FaX]

Ouch, you've obviously made up your mind about this already! All right, naturally I'll respect that and take your words above to imply that your decision is anchored in a much wider ideological context than just business perspectives.

Still I have to say: DAMN, it really hurts to hear that we're not going to see your excellent Valhalla plugins in the Reason rack. We'll have to continue using them on Reason DSP chains through ReWire then.

I don't know if I have made my mind up about anything. I requested the Re SDK a few days ago.

I'm just very upset about this whole App Store thing, and what it could mean to the future of software development as a whole. I'll work on an articulate statement of why I am concerned about the rise of the App Store model in the next few days. Right now, typing is kinda hard (I accidentally chopped off a fingertip yesterday, so I am in a bit of pain).

Apologies to Reason users and Valhalla users if I have caused offense. My intent wasn't to diss Reason as a program, so much as to express concern about the business model, and what it implies for the future of software development in the audio industry.

Sean Costello

Thanks for the clarification Sean, as stated I would be more than willing to pay your standard price + 30% if it meant you didn't loose revenue for something as good as Valhalla in Reason as I know it would indeed be money well spent and would help you develop plug ins for non Reason users and those of us who do for the foreseeable future.

[KBSoundSmith]

the reaction from props own forum seems overwhelmingly positive, so do with that what you will, some of that is pure fanboyism of course, but most are looking forward to the prospect. my experience with reason "users" over the years has been that a sizable proportion of them never actually bought the product to begin with, so that might have a bit to do with the perception. (of course most of them are still using 5 since the ignition key has yet to be cracked.) if the prices in the props app store are low and we get some good plugs in there, this could be a new lease in my relationship with reason. reason has always had a few things that kept me from embracing it fully, but if that's rectified by quality plugs (I want my komplete in there! and amplitube!) I may use it much more.

My response is similar. I was actually half considering selling Reason recently as I'm having a very strong love affair with Alchemy, Zebra, and Diva. But RE stayed my hand; it really has a lot of potential.

To me, I'm not particularly interested in seeing VSTs ported over. Zebra, for example, I'm happy with as a VST. However, what would be interesting is if the individual modules in Zebra were ported individually. Imagine having an unlimited number of FMO modules that also have CV in/out. Unlimited comb filers. MSEG generators. A module for user defined waveforms. That sort of development would just be insane.

[decalogue]

However, what would be interesting is if the individual modules in Zebra were ported individually. Imagine having an unlimited number of FMO modules that also have CV in/out. Unlimited comb filers. MSEG generators. A module for user defined waveforms. That sort of development would just be insane.

That would indeed be insane! I certainly hope that Urs will consider making a reality of such great suggestions.

I'm not even primarily a Reason user, I work in other DAWs most of the time. But when 6.5 is out, I'm definitely going to start using Reason more. So much sound design potential there, just the thought of having Diva in my Combinator patches makes me... well, excited to say the least.

[valhallasound]

To me, I'm not particularly interested in seeing VSTs ported over. Zebra, for example, I'm happy with as a VST. However, what would be interesting is if the individual modules in Zebra were ported individually. Imagine having an unlimited number of FMO modules that also have CV in/out. Unlimited comb filers. MSEG generators. A module for user defined waveforms. That sort of development would just be insane.

This is an interesting point. VSTs tend to have lots of parameters and internal modulation options, but only stereo inputs and outputs. A specialized Re plugin might have fewer parameters, but an extensive mod section in the back.

This would also be helpful when dealing with the issues regarding the App Store model:

For example, if I ported ValhallaRoom over to Re (ignoring my earlier pain-fueled rants), it would feel weird to me to sell the same plugin for $50 on my own store and in the Reason app store, as I would have some users buying things twice, or make less money on the Reason-only version for people who bought Reason only. If I sell the Reason version for 30% more, this would seem like a penalization of Reason users (even if I am making the same money as I would selling a VST at $50). If I sell the Reason version for less, this would appear to be penalizing VST/AU/RTAS users, and would alienate me from my existing customers. It's not an ideal situation.

Meanwhile, if I offered a separate ValhallaReVerb for Re, that was tailored for the platform, and incorporated aspects of my other reverb plugins while remaining a unique entity, then the issues involved above could be avoided, and the experience could be better for Reason users as opposed to a straight port from a VST.

Sean Costello

[karacha]

^

I strongly agree with this. Reason has its advantages. Its sound design potential is great, and with the new devices it could open the door for some really special things; interactions between different devices in a complex combinator would be awesome. It's not like the VST/AU paradigm, this is slightly different.

[KBSoundSmith]

To me, I'm not particularly interested in seeing VSTs ported over. Zebra, for example, I'm happy with as a VST. However, what would be interesting is if the individual modules in Zebra were ported individually. Imagine having an unlimited number of FMO modules that also have CV in/out. Unlimited comb filers. MSEG generators. A module for user defined waveforms. That sort of development would just be insane.

This is an interesting point. VSTs tend to have lots of parameters and internal modulation options, but only stereo inputs and outputs. A specialized Re plugin might have fewer parameters, but an extensive mod section in the back.

This would also be helpful when dealing with the issues regarding the App Store model:

For example, if I ported ValhallaRoom over to Re (ignoring my earlier pain-fueled rants), it would feel weird to me to sell the same plugin for $50 on my own store and in the Reason app store, as I would have some users buying things twice, or make less money on the Reason-only version for people who bought Reason only. If I sell the Reason version for 30% more, this would seem like a penalization of Reason users (even if I am making the same money as I would selling a VST at $50). If I sell the Reason version for less, this would appear to be penalizing VST/AU/RTAS users, and would alienate me from my existing customers. It's not an ideal situation.

Meanwhile, if I offered a separate ValhallaReVerb for Re, that was tailored for the platform, and incorporated aspects of my other reverb plugins while remaining a unique entity, then the issues involved above could be avoided, and the experience could be better for Reason users as opposed to a straight port from a VST.

Sean Costello

Totally. I see good REs being relatively limited in their individual functions, but extending in unique ways with other modules via their back connections.

For a reverb, I would love to see the ER, Main signal, and LR separated into different modules, along with maybe a specialized EQ module. You could, for example, have 4 instances of an ER module with their own settings, but hooked into a line mixer that is passed to the other modules. The ER that is going to be passed into the other modules is selected randomly and can be crossfaded to another module randomly via the control of a CV signal, changing the profile of a room mid-stream for strange effects. Or whatever else you can imagine. Maybe have the ER have a dry version of itself, where it's own wet signal is sent to a distortion unit and fed back in (I don't know how useful any of these examples would be). Maybe an FMO module from Zebra could be used to modulate a LR parameter at audio rate, or differently EQd versions of a signal are spat out of a reverb in a mosaic of different room types. Great opportunity for non-traditional thinking and purposes.