TAL BassLine-101

[ENV1]

Can confirm your findings, ENV1. I'm pretty sure Patrick will solve all those niggles in upcoming updates.

Of course he will.

[snigelx]

I'm hearing that the Volume is working like a VCA level adjustment and giving more oomph to the Env generator. A great way to control the intensity of yr patch.

[BDeep]

i just found something strange. When i turn the volume of all oscillators to 0 (including the noise) and have a Cutoff value of around 2 or more and the filter envelope amount around 8 i hear a noise but usually it should be quiet at that setting.
Is this something copied from the real synth or is it a bug?


BTW self-oscillation (with all oscillators off) seems to works nicely and with filter key follow at maximum it is even playable.


Ingo

The SH101 was a little noisy. I believe that is also what makes the filter self oscillate with all oscs to zero. However, I do think it's a bit too loud, but my memory may fail on me. It's also pretty obvious there's noise in the patches when doing filter sweeps with the noise slider to 0. I think it's all behaviour that was on the real thing as well. Unfortunately, my SH101 is nothing more than an ugly slap of plastic in its current state so I can't check how that behaves.

I contacted Patrick yesterday and mentioned this to him. It actually seems to be the same in his real SH-101 and seemed to worse in others.

He asked if people are interested in a switch to turn this "feature" on/off and i mentioned i guess it would make sense. NI Monark got a knob to control the amount of noise (the "leak" knob).

I also sent him the two patches and the demo i added a few pages ago.
Of course i'll try to do some more soon. I applied for beta testing long ago but somehow he missed to contact me when it finally started. Hope i could add some patches to the collection now.


Ingo

Ah, I suspected as much. I recall the SH101 having a little noise even when no notes were playing, he should have emulated that as well
Thanks for contacting him, I believe it would open up the sound palette a little more if there was an option to turn it off, so I would welcome such a feature.

[Ingonator]

deleted

[ZXOxo67]

in Fl 11.02 wrapper 2.4.5.1

if syncmode is set to "host" than the arp/seq has a sync issue.
it does not run constant if play is pressed. whether in patter or song mode.
if set to "trigger" its ok. maybe a fl problem? u-no-lx has no problem.

[Synthbuilder]

Wow, just wow! It has a proper step time sequencer. And it can output midi to another VST or external synth. And you can drag the sequence into a midi track in your DAW.

Just had to buy it. For that bit alone it was worth the asking price.

And the synth sounds good too.

Tony

[ZXOxo67]

until now i was still missing my old sh-101 hardware. (sold in 1992)
thanks to tal for this baby

[EvilDragon]

Just got another reply from Patrick. He plans to add a switch for the noise but wants to "collect" a few more bugs before it will be included.

Would be better if he'd add it as a small knob so one can actually adjust the amount of noise leaking.

[DJMaytag]

Yeah, since page 14 of this thread. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 29#5409929

Wasn't it announced, but not released until July 6th?

[chk071]

Yeah, since page 14 of this thread. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 29#5409929

Wasn't it announced, but not released until July 6th?

Yeah, the post i linked to is from July the 6th.

[PAK]

To me it sounds like it lacks in "punch" compared to original, I guess it's an envelope related. Something with loudness contour the way sound starts and ends, original sounds more sharp and precise.
It's always for me like this, when I hear a direct comparison of original vs emulation, or like diva vs monark, monark has that thing, which makes it sound more sharp and precise.

I'm not here to start some heated debates, it just an opinion.

Yeah... what is that? As an analog synth owner (nothing too great or vintage) I hear exactly what you're talking about. It's like the attack has a... I call it "pregnancy," that software has trouble with.

Probably the whole loudness contour thing is much more complicated than it seems and while modelling it, there's something usually missed like it was with filters before 0DF filters.

Yep. I hear it too. Tal's emulations show he's obviously got an excellent musical ear himself, so I'm sure what you're hearing is not news to him. Unfortunately, it seems, the problem is not well enough understood by most coders to model for it fully..

Just like Fluxmind I also hear the difference Monark made in this regard. It's the first VST emulation which has reduced this perception difference for me on a more consistent (rather than hit-and-miss) basis. It's awesome that NI's coders not only heard it, but they understood enough of what's going on to model things better! Kudos to them..

As for causes, IMO most remaining differences relate to how audio levels are handled in a synths path, which includes ADSR interactions as well as tone differences resulting from VCA distortion etc. Whether calculation latency is involved in this stuff (ala ZDF), to further complicate things, I don't know. I'm minded to remember ZDF didn't just change the sound of resonance, it also changed fast attack envelope perception where resonance is involved.

Either way the result, of the failure to model these differences, will be some degree of a perception of less attack punch, presence, call it what you will, as well as reduced bass perception from the resulting output. I know the Juno and that's certainly true for Uno LX in comparison to the hardware, so I assume it's still the case with the 101.

It's not the end of the world, but it'd be nice to nail down these last few differences. Once this stuff is solved (and Monark shows it's possible, IMO) it'll finally come down to level of detail "quirks", like component tracking across keys and other fluctuations. A main one I check for is on high resonance sounds with a long release.. near the end of the release the resonance tends not to fade out smoothly on a lot of older hardware.. almost like the resonance is fighting for those last few seconds!

But enough of that. Credit to TAL for another nice job with this one. I subjectively prefer it over the "other" 101 stuff available. I hope it sells well enough that he can take some money to get hold of a more complex classic poly - something with at least 2 oscillators and 2 envelopes, for his next project!

[Ingonator]

deleted

[recursive one]

Demoed, loved, bought. I think it's great to have such a simple synth that makes such simple sounds with such a great quality. IMO simply designed patches often tend to work best in the mix.

And this synth sounds even more awesome when runs through the free TAL chorus.

[Chopper]

instant buy a few seconds after demoed. And I own a SH-101. simple as that. yes, the envelope is a bit weird sometimes compared to the hardware, but this is the best emulation of a hardware synth i have ever seen. I can even reproduce some of my more esoteric patches with no problems. my LuSH 101 licence is for sale, by the way... i love the second lfo on it, but for pure 101 fun and goodness, this is the one to go to...

[fluffy_little_something]

To me it sounds like it lacks in "punch" compared to original, I guess it's an envelope related. Something with loudness contour the way sound starts and ends, original sounds more sharp and precise.
It's always for me like this, when I hear a direct comparison of original vs emulation, or like diva vs monark, monark has that thing, which makes it sound more sharp and precise.

I'm not here to start some heated debates, it just an opinion.

Yeah... what is that? As an analog synth owner (nothing too great or vintage) I hear exactly what you're talking about. It's like the attack has a... I call it "pregnancy," that software has trouble with.

Probably the whole loudness contour thing is much more complicated than it seems and while modelling it, there's something usually missed like it was with filters before 0DF filters.

Yep. I hear it too. Tal's emulations show he's obviously got an excellent musical ear himself, so I'm sure what you're hearing is not news to him. Unfortunately, it seems, the problem is not well enough understood by most coders to model for it fully..

Just like Fluxmind I also hear the difference Monark made in this regard. It's the first VST emulation which has reduced this perception difference for me on a more consistent (rather than hit-and-miss) basis. It's awesome that NI's coders not only heard it, but they understood enough of what's going on to model things better! Kudos to them..

As for causes, IMO most remaining differences relate to how audio levels are handled in a synths path, which includes ADSR interactions as well as tone differences resulting from VCA distortion etc. Whether calculation latency is involved in this stuff (ala ZDF), to further complicate things, I don't know. I'm minded to remember ZDF didn't just change the sound of resonance, it also changed fast attack envelope perception where resonance is involved.

Either way the result, of the failure to model these differences, will be some degree of a perception of less attack punch, presence, call it what you will, as well as reduced bass perception from the resulting output. I know the Juno and that's certainly true for Uno LX in comparison to the hardware, so I assume it's still the case with the 101.

It's not the end of the world, but it'd be nice to nail down these last few differences. Once this stuff is solved (and Monark shows it's possible, IMO) it'll finally come down to level of detail "quirks", like component tracking across keys and other fluctuations. A main one I check for is on high resonance sounds with a long release.. near the end of the release the resonance tends not to fade out smoothly on a lot of older hardware.. almost like the resonance is fighting for those last few seconds!

But enough of that. Credit to TAL for another nice job with this one. I subjectively prefer it over the "other" 101 stuff available. I hope it sells well enough that he can take some money to get hold of a more complex classic poly - something with at least 2 oscillators and 2 envelopes, for his next project!

Judging from teh GUI (I don't use NI stuff) Monark is a real monophonic synth (which is pretty rare with software), right? Maybe it has to do with that...