So the Propellerhead's forum is down. Post in here if you normally post there.

[stroker_ace]

I think you have nailed it there stroker with the "basically a company wide immaturity". This was my problem with Reason.. Not the product, but the company. It's frustratingly difficult to have any sort of conversation with them where they will admit anything is less than perfect. Leo especially.

I once made a very broad, very basic, completely unarguable point on the forum, and Leo replied with a very strange response that didn't actually address the points/questions I raised.

And he's not alone. I've noticed that a few Propellerheads employees cherry-pick which questions to respond to, and when they do respond to a question, they answer them in the most vanilla, vague, "so obvious you didn't need to bother posting that, and you didn't even answer the question!" way possible.

Just look at the recent forum fiasco, and their (lack of) tweets about it.

Now if the *rumours* are true and RE sales are less than expected

Well, we know it's not a rumor for U-he.

Between the relatively small user base, the prohibitively restrictive GUI guidelines, the 30% off the top, and the SDK limitations, I don't know why anybody would develop rack extensions.

But third party support was never their number one priority. They just want to be able to get their products to market more quickly, and to be able to charge more for them.

A Reason update used to feature three new devices and cost $99. Now, those same features will probably cost about $250.

Also, if they need a quick burst of cash, they can just put one of their rack extensions on sale.

[C+C+]

I dont think Reason is bad at all but the fact that it's so based on the Modularistic ways of sound designing with cv and cables the RE synths dont come presenting 4000 presets like predator did probably thinking all Reason users are Pro sound designers but I think the more presets the more clients .

there is all types of Reason Users from the modulare synth pro or geek to the hip hop sampling Producer ou trapist , dubstepist , rocker , Rasta , salsa , etc etc and lot see that there is more bonus unsing it then things missing for what they do .

but most money spenders in this market are the un-experimented producers who see more value in presets because for them it's Pro sound made by pros .

On the over side for all the modulare geeks of today and yesterday and tomorow Reason is a N'1 for the price and RE's may be a bit cpu hangry when your machine is not very recent or powerfull but it works fine with both of my new PC's so in two years nobody will say that in my Op .


but super presets and lot's of them always sell more for sound making machines because there is more unexperimented users or lazy ones then there is sound designer ones so maybe it's why some RE's sell less then others I dont know ?!?!

[krucial]

One more thing:

How many of you have ever spoken with any VST devs who are HIGHLY unimpressed with not only the SDK, but with the companys attitude too?

I have. And I not going to name the 2 companys. But I will tell you point blank, some have been so disrespected by the whole way Props treated them, they would never associte with Props again.

Trust me - Im not making this up. I was shocked to hear how one developer was treated. Then add their %30 cut.

Youre goddamn right about sticking with Reaper. It's so much more efficient its not funny. Reason's fine, but don't even give me the "all in one solution" line of BS considering its efficiency problems. That's what hinders it, IMO.

That's the problem with hearsay though. Until you know all the details and actually see the full exchange on both sides you have to be careful about drawing such sweeping conclusions. In my experience *most* developers maintain a mature and professional attitude. If it doesn't make business sense for a dev to adopt the SDK, agree to its terms and port their plugins, then they won't. Simple as that. Nobody is being forced to do anything against their will here, so your overly dramatic characterization isn't offering up anything constructive to the conversation.

Interesting, no way am I having an "overly dramatic characterization" = I actually spoken to 2 different VST devs who were downright offended by Props.

Im making that up? Or are you trying to say my first hand account of trying to get certain devs onboard with RE's never happened?

Who are the devs? How were they offended? What did PH do to them that was so bad?

[Tronam]

Interesting, no way am I having an "overly dramatic characterization" = I actually spoken to 2 different VST devs who were downright offended by Props.

Im making that up? Or are you trying to say my first hand account of trying to get certain devs onboard with RE's never happened?

Pitting one developer against another in a public forum based on some feedback you received from one of them doesn't count as "first hand" anything to me. It sounds more like unprofessional drama bait.

[Mr. Fister]

First off....Tronam, I'm not pitting Devs against each other. That's cheap to even assume.

Go back to the Props forum if youre gonna try to make an argument out of something that was never an argument to begin with.

Sound good? Great.

"Who are the devs? How were they offended? What did PH do to them that was so bad?"

I'm really not going to say the names. They were both treated like second class companys, if, and this is by their words paraphrased, they were even treated like legitimate companys at all.

They said they were supremely jerked around and completely disgusted about how they were treated. I dont know who's blowin' who over at Softube, but like stroker said:

"Between the relatively small user base, the prohibitively restrictive GUI guidelines, the 30% off the top, and the SDK limitations, I don't know why anybody would develop rack extensions".

Anyone here know how true that is? Yeah, people who know the playing field, thats who, IMHO.

Please dont give me the "slander" BS either. That's, again, something better fit for the Props forum where no one is allowed to even say anything.

And yes = The "mods" over that that forum DID used to cherry pick certain questions and issues. They were, and the companys attitude, the reason that forum would get nasty, IMO. I've seen better moderated forums like for cars and car issues thats not even a legitimate company be FARRRR better managed than that place. How long did it take till they got their darn certificate right? It took so long. They dont give a f**k.

And when you'd smack em with a REALLY good one, theyd never openly explain the problem, theyd do the ultra-awesome tactic of "Have you contacted support?" - What for? An extremely delayed response?? That doesnt explain jack? Yeah, awesome.

[stroker_ace]

Pitting one developer against another in a public forum based on some feedback you received from one of them doesn't count as "first hand" anything to me. It sounds more like unprofessional drama bait.

"pitting one developer against another"?!? Now who's being dramatic?

It sounds like Mr. Fister got it right from the horse's mouth.

And even if he didn't; so what?!?

Let it all hang out, I say, and give people enough credit to make up their own minds.

[Mr. Fister]

I got it COMPLETELY from the horses mouth. I wanted this one devs products as REs SOO babdly, I contacted him multiple times.

I WANTED to see him have some success with RE's. VERY BADLY! I wanted to see him have some success! So I kept bugging him once in a while.

I was totally shocked to hear his experience. No = he was NOT treated like someone Props even wanted around so the last time I talked to him, he was like "F**k those guys!".

No. I was not stoked to find this out. The other dev I spoke with was more turned off by the pricing scheme than anything, as well as the SDK limitations.

So like everything in the Props forum that used to be, completely keep thinking anything it is your heart desires despite being privy to other knowledge.

[Mr. Fister]

I'm sorry, but I cant stop laughing about the notion of "slander".

The Reason user base is largely populated by (*you fill in the blank) minds who quantify someones opinion or experience that ends up being even slightly derogative as just that - "slander".

Please say you can grasp that and those words arent too "high dollar" for this place.

[Mr. Fister]

Personally, Im glad the forum is down.

Its giving users a chance and a place to actually speak their minds about their experience with the product and the company.

If honesty isn't your favorite thing, you may want to look away.

[krucial]

Cricket is that you?

So a dev got his ego bruised? He wasn't treated like the diva he was?

What do you mean who's blowing who and Softube? Where did that come from and why?

Sorry about all these questions but this shit is becoming quite comical.

[Mr. Fister]

Cricket is that you?

So a dev got his ego bruised? He wasn't treated like the diva he was?

What do you mean who's blowing who and Softube? Where did that come from and why?

Sorry about all these questions but this shit is becoming quite comical.

I doubt I'm anyone you do know as I dont remember your name from that forum. I havent been there since shortly after 6.5 or right before 7, I cant remember. I never used to post much, just watched and observed.

The Softube reference came from the previous mention of Softube in this thread.

Sorry if you find it comical or whatever. I find much of the product loyalty extremely funny. So go figure

[krucial]

Cricket is that you?

So a dev got his ego bruised? He wasn't treated like the diva he was?

What do you mean who's blowing who and Softube? Where did that come from and why?

Sorry about all these questions but this shit is becoming quite comical.

I doubt I'm anyone you do know as I dont remember your name from that forum. I havent been there since shortly after 6.5 or right before 7, I cant remember. I never used to post much, just watched and observed.

The Softube reference came from the previous mention of Softube in this thread.

Sorry if you find it comical or whatever. I find much of the product loyalty extremely funny. So go figure

OK cricket sorry your organ and echo did make it to the rack. Keep venting bro. Aint nothing like a pissed off Reason user. So much passion.

[Mr. Fister]

Quite sure you have the wrong person here. Quite easily positive about that. Ever heard of NOMAD? You're way off the mark regarding a "organ or echo" - wrong dude.

[zeebot]

The thread has been bubbling for a while but I see its finally boiled over into the same old same old.
This has been discussed many many many times and at the end of it all it has achieved and changed nothing.
I dont exactly see what the goals are?
Is it just to feel vindicated and correct?
Ok, you are absolutely correct in everything said.
Propellerheads are money grabbing arrogant swedes who do not care one bit for users or partners and just want to lead users into a perpetual cash yielding alley while spitting in their faces and destroying users CPUs.
Right can we draw a line through that and actually move on to more positive things.

[krucial]

Quite sure you have the wrong person here. Quite easily positive about that. Ever heard of NOMAD? You're way off the mark regarding a "organ or echo" - wrong dude.

My work here is done.