EBU R-128 meets K-System v2, a possible future for the loudness debate (Loudness War)

[codec_spurt]

I'll respond tomorrow as it's a bit late over here (and Dean's posts are a tad hard to read currently).

But codec_spurt, can you also send me a PM with the PDF? That'd be nice.

Sure, it's pretty much done now.

People are just repeating themselves (eh, you said as much yourself Mr.Fox ).

I'll send you a copy. They are just notes, but all of the notes come from credible people who know what they are talking about on the subject.

What was interesting to me was the amount of people with thousands of posts and with full going concern businesses that just did not have a clue about what some might call 'gain staging', or just general stuff to do with that anyway...


I try to put the stuff about callibrating your setup first of all at the beginning of the notes. We go from science then into art...


It's purely just quotes. But there is so much crap to wade through on this subject. I stuck to just the people that know what they are talking about.


But no worries, I'll pdf it up and PM it to you.


cheers.

[codec_spurt]

Hi Compyfox, I've just finished up and sent you a copy.

Thank you so much for all your work going back what must be a good few years now.

I've sent it out to a couple of other interested parties too.



As I said in my PM, if there are any corrections needed just say.



Anyone else want a copy, just PM me and I'll send you a link to a .zip file.


It's nearly 10,000 words in all.

And it is quite zen.

Just quotes. Anonymous ramblings and musings on the subject. But it might be all you ever need to get started.

I'm going to post some links to some free tools next.

But this was just a little tip of the hat to Mr. Compyfox.

[codec_spurt]

Okay, there are lots of free tools out there.

This is what you need to start playing about with this stuff:

http://www.meterplugs.com/kmeter


This is a great tool and even though it costs a few dollars to buy, the demo is very generous. You can use it to start off without spending any cash, and if yo like it or need its advanced features, you know what to do. It counts a 15 second delay before you can read it, but then it gives you the RMS average and the K-14 scale as defaults which you can't change.
But hey, they are probably all you will need.

This is a beautiful and very very easy to read meter.

See Mr. Freemason himself explaining it:



He also briefly touches on the history of metering and some stuff you need to know if you have just started using Logic.

Which leads on nicely to:
http://sleepytimedsp.com/software/str-bundle/

Grab the lot from these chaps while you can, if you haven't already.
Top notch tools. Transients, Crosstalk, Polarity, Panning.. Stereo Tools.. Free.


Anyway, this is something worth paying a couple of bucks for.

http://www.klanghelm.com/VUMT.html


Yes it's paid, the price of a couple of beers. But what class. And what a useful tool. With the other two freebies mentioned above. You will be metering like a champ.


cheers.

[codec_spurt]

Also if you want to see what is happening with true peaks and inter sample percolation



http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ebuloudness/



It's only a couple of bucks, but free for probably most of what you would need it for.


And also check out the http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-barricade/

It really does work on a deeper and more efficient level than its predecessor. I tested it and it catches peaks that the previous Barricade did not.

And you don't even really need to pay for that either to do with it as you want. Just can't save any settings that's all.

The best tools on the block, pretty much free or dirt low prices.


I'm buying Barricade and the whole http://www.toneboosters.com/trackessentials/ later.


I've bought most of the Bus tools already anyway.


Cons? No true sidechaining (for vst 2.4 compatibility) and a bit juicy on the cpu, but hey, these are mastering tools for the most part.

[Compyfox]

Lots of quotes from both KVR and GS. Some of them even unsorted.

I skipped through a lot of the text, since I knew that already. But if it had a certain order, it might work as short guide. Either way, thanks for the ZIP.


Come to think of it, an actual guide on a techblog or something might do the trick. Or, if you're in Germany, the book "Metering" by Andreas Frieseke. Though the current revision still lacks the EBU R-128 meter. And of course my suggestion.




BTW:
I just installed Cubase 7.0.4. Steinberg said that they offered a custom reference level setup for the EBU R-128 meter. While this is all good and fine, the system is still crap.


Why?
Because the meter scale doen't shift. Meaning, the visual representation.


In LU mode I have +9LU to -39LU. And the scale is calibrated to -23LUFS. So if you want to use -12LUFS, this isn't possible as the reference level doesn't shift down. Also, the maximum limit is +10LU as offset.

The LUFS mode is even more messed up. Here the scale goes from -14LUFS down to -36LUFS or something. The same happens here as well - the scale doesn't adapt.

I think a lot of people already filed FR's, but for the time being - this meter is NOT usable for the K-System v2. Than means, it somewhat is... if you're using K-20v2, but due to the meter design, it's hard to read.



I still recommend third party tools for this.

And as soon as I get my hands on Wavelab 8, I can comment on that as well. But I don't keep my hopes up in terms of host built in tools. At least not if we're talking about Steinberg.

And you don't even really need to pay for that either to do with it as you want. Just can't save any settings that's all.

Demo mode:
In terms of EBU Loudness, the meter and histogram resets if you stop the playback.

In terms of TB_Barricade, you can neither save nor render. It's only working in real time.

Cons? No true sidechaining (for vst 2.4 compatibility) and a bit juicy on the cpu, but hey, these are mastering tools for the most part.

tb_Barricade introduces fixed latency due to the internal OS matrix (linked to the look ahead - it's gradually rising the longer the look ahead).

tb_EBU_Loudness has bargraph slowdowns in Wavelab due to the used coding framework. Else both plugins are low profile. But Barricade is not recommended for mixing purposes - only mastering.




Keep in mind with the VU's and the "old K-System":
These metering tools are usually unweighted. Meaning, no pre-measurement courve like EBU R-128.


I appreciate the OT stuff, but let's stick to the EBU R-128/K-System v2 specs.

[codec_spurt]

Lots of quotes from both KVR and GS. Some of them even unsorted.

Ja, du bist richtig!

Yes, you are right!

That was the whole point. I do believe I said this was where my notes came from.

They are very unsorted. But there in comes their zen quality.

Every word, every sentence carries meaning.


And half of the 10,000 words were yours, so thank you.


Danke.

[Compyfox]

A pleasure. Thanks for reading and educating yourself.

[codec_spurt]

Cons? No true sidechaining (for vst 2.4 compatibility) and a bit juicy on the cpu, but hey, these are mastering tools for the most part.

tb_Barricade introduces fixed latency due to the internal OS matrix (linked to the look ahead - it's gradually rising the longer the look ahead).

tb_EBU_Loudness has bargraph slowdowns in Wavelab due to the used coding framework. Else both plugins are low profile. But Barricade is not recommended for mixing purposes - only mastering.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Still, for a beginner, that is pretty good stuff.

I'm just going to buy Barricade later. I really shouldn't, but I just have to. The EBU_Loudness I will get later. But it really does get you hooked if you care about this stuff. I do. I want to go deeper. It is important.

I also like to take a step back. I just did a track where I just eased off on it all, I mean the metering, no need to meter everything like a maniac. A little knowledge learned goes a long way. And it really did reward me with a more meatier and punchier mix. I don't think this is easy stuff. It is no panacea, but there are great rewards to be had for a bit of time spent.


It's been a week or so now. I've had enough. But I will say, this has been one of the most rewarding week's research into audio engineering I have done.

And thankyou Compyfox. Your teachings have been invaluable.



cheers.

[Compyfox]

I only wish I could write down "substitute teacher at KVR Audio" in my curriculum vitae. But unfortunately, KVR is not a school. So that doesn't count.

[codec_spurt]

I appreciate the OT stuff, but let's stick to the EBU R-128/K-System v2 specs.

My apologies. It won't happen again.



cheers.




Edit:

I grabbed http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-barricade/ today.

[matthew_wehttam]

I spill coffee over all you expensive equipment.

[Compyfox]

Care to elaborate?

[matthew_wehttam]

I just had to read the whole thing. Although I am sure there has been lots of work go into it. Its kinda dull yet neccesary. After reading this a second time I remembered about casette tape players. When people mixed more.diversly yet for a limited form of media. There was dolby which I read on wikipedia is 2:1 compression with reduced low and highs.

[Compyfox]

First and foremost, please stop using colors. This is highly irritating on this board.

Second of all, this has nothing to do with the Dolby NR system. The Dolby NR system was created to evade the limitations of tape machines (high noise floor, small dynamic range). This has nothing to do with loudness or handling of the same matter.


EBU R-128 was originally for Broadcast streams only. I took the time and made it more "interesting" and more accessible for musicians, basically fused two concepts into one (K-System v1 and EBU R-128) and then called it K-System v2. Apparently, it caused enough stir to be discussed at an AES convention last year, but there are still too many people out there that are like "funk it, I'll go as loud as I can - everyone else does it, why should I?".

Even though I recently read an article, where customers actually care for more clean and dynamic mixes again. Unfortunately, I lost that open tab in a browser crash the other day, else I could post it in here.

[Tricky-Loops]

I like Matthew. His tips are of invaluable value. Thanks to him I use gates now to make my tracks similar loud...

Are you still using this oldskool EBU R-128 crap, Compyfox?

And K2, isn't it a Munich project from Klaus Munzert?