Tone2 Nemesis is released!

[Mac of BIOnighT]

Oh, I see, so what you meant is non-traditional waveforms. Nemesis comes with about 200, I think, different waveforms (see attachment), freely assignable to each of the four oscillators. Again, you can upload your own waves, but it will only extract a single cycle of them, not the whole sample.
As KingTuck pointed out, though, the drums you hear in the demos are generally other instruments or samples or loops. Any other sound is Nemesis. The guidelines we get when recording the demos are that we can't use any sound-altering fx, including compressors, so - other than drums - what you hear is basically what you get.
Really, when you really start delving into this synth, there are very few limits...

TEMPFRA.jpg

[zerocrossing]

Well, I finished my work for the day and had some time to kill, so I decided to listen to some of the demo tunes on the site while reading the specs of this thing.

Let me start by saying that I own Electra 2 and Rayblaster so I am not a Tone 2 hater.

But honestly, I don't know what it is they're doing here.

Nemesis is essentially being marketed as an FM synth but the truth is, that's just a small fraction of what this thing does. No way are the sounds created in the demo tracks done by pure FM synthesis. There is much more going on under the hood, including samples. And that's fine. I've come to accept that Tone 2 throws everything including the kitchen sink into their synths. They are a programmer's playground.

But all this "Better FM" and "DX 7 is PD" and "other synths are crap" and yada, yada, yada, is just a little over the top. I get that they have to market their product and I get that they have to make it sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread but really?

And the most hypocritical part of the whole ad campaign is that after condemning other forms of FM as being inferior, they included those forms in the synth except their way of doing it is better, without the artifacts and weaknesses.

Bravo for your ingenuity and genius.

I get marketing, but that sales letter is so over the top, it's hard to take it seriously.

The sound? Yeah, it sounds great. It doesn't sound FM great, but it sounds great. I'm sure my favorite sounds in the demos were not made just with FM synthesis and I'll bet my whole synth collection that a great many of them use samples. And ultimately, all of this ends up making Nemesis sound very much like Electra 2 and Rayblaster.

Add to that the fact that the synth is $200, the same price tag as Zebra 2, which is a vastly superior synth as far as what it can do programming wise, and I have to pass on it. I already feel guilty about spending close to $400 on Electra 2 and Rayblaster. As much as I like them, their synths are overpriced. I mean REALLY overpriced.

I have no doubt that Nemesis is a whole lot of fun to program as is Electra 2 and Rayblaster. But $200 fun? It's just hard for me to justify yet another $200 synth purchase with what I currently have on my hard drive.

None of this is meant to take away from the sound of Nemesis, which is excellent. But there is nothing really new here. I've heard these sounds in other Tone 2 synths. They're all great and I've already got 'em.

When Tone 2 makes a really different and unique synth that doesn't sound like everything else that they put out, maybe I'll consider purchasing another one of their synths. But right now I have everything that I need from them.

I agree that Tone2's hard sell tactics are hard to swallow, but their instruments are undeniably good so I just ignore them. I got the 2 for 1 deal last December too and I didn't have any intention of getting Nemesis, but there wasn't anything else I was interested in... so I took a chance despite the boring demo tracks. I really found myself liking it a lot. Personally, I think Tone2 needs someone else in charge of marketing. Sure, all the EDM stuff is fine and I know that's probably where the bulk of money comes from, but I think they'd be better served if they showed off a wider range of what their instruments are capable of.

[Kindred]

I have posted this before however largely agree with previous sentiments. If Tone2 halved the price of their synths I would probably buy most of them. However at the prices they charge, the synths just don't stack up against the competition...

[KingTuck]

I have posted this before however largely agree with previous sentiments. If Tone2 halved the price of their synths I would probably buy most of them. However at the prices they charge, the synths just don't stack up against the competition...

Seems that most people on KVR have really weird beliefs about pricing. Half of what they charge would be ridiculous bargain level pricing. Less would be fair, but not half. Where don't they stack up?

Tone2 will continue to work the way they do unless Markus has a change of philosophy about some of these things. As it stands I'm pretty sure he's the guy doing almost everything major for the company,

I'm sure my favorite sounds in the demos were not made just with FM synthesis and I'll bet my whole synth collection that a great many of them use samples.

I'm not a developer and I might be wrong, but all vst synths use samples. A sine wave in vst synth is not generated by current moving through circuits, it's a sample of a sine wave (please devs out there confirm this).
Nemesis can also extract and import a single cycle from any sound on your hard disk, so if what you mean by samples is this and what I said above is true, then yes, it uses samples.
Otherwise, the answer is no, it does not.
I agree with you about the emphasis given to FM, though, as it is capable of so much more...

What I meant by samples is non traditional sine, saw, square samples. I heard kick drums and snares and there's no way they were made with traditional waves. Not of that quality. Those were unquestionably drum samples.

And like I said, I'm fine with how Tone 2 puts together their synths. They are some of the most feature packed synths out there. But they are still terribly overpriced when you compare them to something like Zebra 2. If Nemesis was selling for like $129 to $149, I might actually pick it up. It's just not a $200 synth. None of their synths are. And they really need to get real with their pricing.

I need to point out that calling non traditional waveforms "samples" is just plain wrong. Also that their synths aren't necessarily "some of the most feature packed". As a quick point, Nemesis has 2 oscillator modules each with 1 modulator oscillator and one slave oscillator. There's only one possible routing. Synths like FM8 for example have much more in that regard. Tone2 favor design over "toss everything in!" typically, I'm a bit unsure where a lot of your complaints are coming from and TBH I'm fairly surprised that you don't know some of this basic, basic stuff.

[wagtunes]

I have posted this before however largely agree with previous sentiments. If Tone2 halved the price of their synths I would probably buy most of them. However at the prices they charge, the synths just don't stack up against the competition...

Seems that most people on KVR have really weird beliefs about pricing. Half of what they charge would be ridiculous bargain level pricing. Less would be fair, but not half. Where don't they stack up?

Tone2 will continue to work the way they do unless Markus has a change of philosophy about some of these things. As it stands I'm pretty sure he's the guy doing almost everything major for the company,

I'm sure my favorite sounds in the demos were not made just with FM synthesis and I'll bet my whole synth collection that a great many of them use samples.

I'm not a developer and I might be wrong, but all vst synths use samples. A sine wave in vst synth is not generated by current moving through circuits, it's a sample of a sine wave (please devs out there confirm this).
Nemesis can also extract and import a single cycle from any sound on your hard disk, so if what you mean by samples is this and what I said above is true, then yes, it uses samples.
Otherwise, the answer is no, it does not.
I agree with you about the emphasis given to FM, though, as it is capable of so much more...

What I meant by samples is non traditional sine, saw, square samples. I heard kick drums and snares and there's no way they were made with traditional waves. Not of that quality. Those were unquestionably drum samples.

And like I said, I'm fine with how Tone 2 puts together their synths. They are some of the most feature packed synths out there. But they are still terribly overpriced when you compare them to something like Zebra 2. If Nemesis was selling for like $129 to $149, I might actually pick it up. It's just not a $200 synth. None of their synths are. And they really need to get real with their pricing.

I need to point out that calling non traditional waveforms "samples" is just plain wrong. Also that their synths aren't necessarily "some of the most feature packed". As a quick point, Nemesis has 2 oscillator modules each with 1 modulator oscillator and one slave oscillator. There's only one possible routing. Synths like FM8 for example have much more in that regard. Tone2 favor design over "toss everything in!" typically, I'm a bit unsure where a lot of your complaints are coming from and TBH I'm fairly surprised that you don't know some of this basic, basic stuff.

My only "complaint" is about the price. I love the sound of their synths. Own two of them. I just feel they are overpriced. There is also a lot of similarity between their synths.Nothing about Nemesis is strikingly different, sound wise, from the synths I already own. At least to my ears, which is the only thing that matters.

Sorry if my stupidity surprises you.

[KingTuck]

I have posted this before however largely agree with previous sentiments. If Tone2 halved the price of their synths I would probably buy most of them. However at the prices they charge, the synths just don't stack up against the competition...

Seems that most people on KVR have really weird beliefs about pricing. Half of what they charge would be ridiculous bargain level pricing. Less would be fair, but not half. Where don't they stack up?

Tone2 will continue to work the way they do unless Markus has a change of philosophy about some of these things. As it stands I'm pretty sure he's the guy doing almost everything major for the company,

I'm sure my favorite sounds in the demos were not made just with FM synthesis and I'll bet my whole synth collection that a great many of them use samples.

I'm not a developer and I might be wrong, but all vst synths use samples. A sine wave in vst synth is not generated by current moving through circuits, it's a sample of a sine wave (please devs out there confirm this).
Nemesis can also extract and import a single cycle from any sound on your hard disk, so if what you mean by samples is this and what I said above is true, then yes, it uses samples.
Otherwise, the answer is no, it does not.
I agree with you about the emphasis given to FM, though, as it is capable of so much more...

What I meant by samples is non traditional sine, saw, square samples. I heard kick drums and snares and there's no way they were made with traditional waves. Not of that quality. Those were unquestionably drum samples.

And like I said, I'm fine with how Tone 2 puts together their synths. They are some of the most feature packed synths out there. But they are still terribly overpriced when you compare them to something like Zebra 2. If Nemesis was selling for like $129 to $149, I might actually pick it up. It's just not a $200 synth. None of their synths are. And they really need to get real with their pricing.

I need to point out that calling non traditional waveforms "samples" is just plain wrong. Also that their synths aren't necessarily "some of the most feature packed". As a quick point, Nemesis has 2 oscillator modules each with 1 modulator oscillator and one slave oscillator. There's only one possible routing. Synths like FM8 for example have much more in that regard. Tone2 favor design over "toss everything in!" typically, I'm a bit unsure where a lot of your complaints are coming from and TBH I'm fairly surprised that you don't know some of this basic, basic stuff.

My only "complaint" is about the price. I love the sound of their synths. Own two of them. I just feel they are overpriced. There is also a lot of similarity between their synths.Nothing about Nemesis is strikingly different, sound wise, from the synths I already own. At least to my ears, which is the only thing that matters.

Sorry if my stupidity surprises you.

I'll agree with you on price. With the exception of Saurus all of their products are a bit too much. You can get the value out of them, but indeed they don't sell "no brainers".

Wasn't trying to call you stupid! Sorry if it rubbed you the wrong way!

[Mac of BIOnighT]

Sorry if my stupidity surprises you.

Hey, I'm envious! My stupidity never seems to surprise anyone, and yet I do my very best to be as stupid as I possibly can Whatever I do or say, people always seem to expect it from me... Uhmmm...

[Mac of BIOnighT]

Edit - double post, see what I mean?

[Examigan]

I'm sure my favorite sounds in the demos were not made just with FM synthesis and I'll bet my whole synth collection that a great many of them use samples.

I'm not a developer and I might be wrong, but all vst synths use samples. A sine wave in vst synth is not generated by current moving through circuits, it's a sample of a sine wave (please devs out there confirm this).
Nemesis can also extract and import a single cycle from any sound on your hard disk, so if what you mean by samples is this and what I said above is true, then yes, it uses samples.
Otherwise, the answer is no, it does not.
I agree with you about the emphasis given to FM, though, as it is capable of so much more...

I asked Dmitry Sches about this last year, (I was writing a review on Diversion), and he said for the "Built-In" category of waveform shapes, all of those are real-time and don't use any pre-stored audio data, oscillator generates them from scratch. He did say the "Noises" from the "Built-In" part is the only group which uses pre-built samples for generation. If his synth works that way, some others probably do as well.

[Mac of BIOnighT]

If his synth works that way, some others probably do as well.

I found this in the meantime http://www.martin-finke.de/blog/article ... waveforms/ so apparently yes, it's possible to generate wavs mathematically as opposed to using samples. It would be interesting to know how many synths use one method and how many use the other... though in the end I don't think it makes any difference really, but just out of curiosity.

[KingTuck]

I'm under the impression that many generate them without samples. Dunno numbers though, I'd bet not many people know.

[Mac of BIOnighT]

I don't know what the difference is between a single cycle wave from a sample and one generated with no samples, it would be nice if some dev explained (leaving personal taste aside)... anybody?

[MaxSynths]

I don't know what the difference is between a single cycle wave from a sample and one generated with no samples, it would be nice if some dev explained (leaving personal taste aside)... anybody?

Basically there is no difference at all. To feed a synth with a single cycle waveform or generate such waveform in realtime are only two different ways to tell the instrument to do exactly the same thing. I think that using single cycle waves require more skills for the programmer to "set" everything properly; at the same time it's easier in a later moment (by using single cycle files) to expand the synth' options (for example giving to the user the option to load custom waveforms, like in Nemesis).

When a waveform is generated in realtime is for specific reasons, for example if the developer wants to emulate a specific characteristic of an analog oscillator and similar things.

It's up to the programmer to choose what is "better". Better here means better for him at the programming stage. The programmer can choose to work in a way or another according with what he have in mind for that particular synth (let's say the synth will be a synth that allows to load custom waveforms, then doesn't make sense to develop a "realtime circuit" and at the same time the code that will load and interpret the single cycle waveforms: it's only a waste of time and resources. Or maybe not. It all depends on the result the programmer wants to achieve).


By the way: synths are "scientific instruments" but, as musicians, sometimes we should remember that the most important thing is to have an artistic approach to instruments and judge 'em for their sound and options.

[Mac of BIOnighT]

Great explanation, Max, thanks!! And yes, I totally agree with you: the artist's approach to an instrument is all that counts

[MaxSynths]