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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11546 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:41 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

ghettosynth wrote:
Ingonator wrote:Admiral Quality Poly-Ana has AM, FM and PM (phase modulation) available in all 3 Oscs and each Osc could be used as a source (besides other sources).

With the 2 modulation mixers you could create complex modulations (including the 3 Oscs as sources) and then use the mixers as a complex mod source in the 3 oscillators (for AM, FM and/or PM).


I don't know anything about poly-ana, are those audio rate modulations and can you then modulate the level (non audio rate) with an EG?


Well i meant using the 3 Oscs as a source which means audio rate.

In Poly-Ana the 3 Oscs could be routed to several parameters.

In each of the 3 Oscs this includes (those could be used all at once for each Osc):
1) AM
2) FM
3) Waveform Mod or Dest Mod
4) PW Mod or Phase Mod

Amounts go up to 10 which is a very high value. An AM amount of 1.0 also corresponds to a value of 1.0 in e.g. Serum but you could go much higher in Poly-Ana.
First in Poly-Ana i used a maximum amount of 10 and was confused that the result is totally different.

The 3 Oscs (audio rate) could be also routed to:
- Filter 1 Cutoff or Filter 1 Resonance (both if you do not use a filter envelope modulation too)
- Filter 2 Cutoff or Filter 2 Resonance (both if you do not use a filter envelope modulation too)
- Amplifier 1 panning or Amplifier 1 Volume/Amplitude
- Amplifier 2 panning or Amplifier 2 Volume/Amplitude

All those options mentioned got a dedicated drop-down menu with multiple mod source options that also include the oscillators (OSC-1 to OSC-3).

For more complex modulations you could combine up to 4 mod sources wit hthe 2 "modulation mixers".
Each of the up to 4 modulations could be a multiplication(*) or addition (+) and each of the 4 steps has an adjustable amount.
The result of the mod mixer could the selected as e.g. "Mix-1" or "Mix-2" in the mod source drop-down menus of the parameters in the lists above.

In the mod mixer you could combine an oscillator output with e,g, an envelope to modulate e.g. the AM amount. For example for the AM in Osc 1 instead of Osc 2 as a mod source you then choose "Mix-1".
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10120 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:49 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:
ghettosynth wrote: If you want to just create some wavetables that make use of AM, then use Serum. If you want to just play with ring mod then probably almost anything will do. If you want to experiment with chains of oscillators modulating each other then I I think you'll find Reaktor and/or various modulars less limiting. Bazille could do some interesting stuff here.


In Serum as i alraedy mentioned earlier it is possible to create a wavetabel based on AM but the oscilloscope screenshots i posted were done using AM, RM or RM in realtime and you could set and also modulate the amount.


Again, you are missing what I'm saying. You are limited to creating a wavetable. You cannot set up a chain as follows

A->B->C->D where each operator A,B,C,D has its own envelope and each of the modulations between operator are audio rate. In fact, AFAIK, you can't even setup A->B where A and B are the two oscillators. You can only do A+B where A and B are static waves based on some function that can be arbitrarily complex.

Besides that as alraedy mentioend too you could combine that with wavetable scanning and also do that wavetablecanning for both the carrier and modulator (Oscs A and B).


That isn't going to mitigate the limitations that I'm talking about.

Another question is about which waveforms we speak when talking about an AM synth. Only standard waveforms like e.g. Sine, Triangle, Saw, Square and variable Pulse or all kinds of waveforms including complex digital ones. This would make a big difference.


Certainly, but, my point still holds that only modular environments will give you significant ability in defining a structure. FM6 out of the box includes all standard waveforms as well as all of the complex waves defined in the TX series. You can of course easily modify the ensemble to include any waveform of your choosing.

Anyway my opinion is that something like a "pure" AM synth does not make much sense while with synths that also include AM options besides others (including e.g. Serum and others i mentioned alraedy) it might make sense.


I don't disagree, however, I do feel that Serem isn't particularly interesting here. My experiments so far have supported my own intuition that a complex operator structure like is available in FM synths is going to give you the best platform for getting the most out of AM. Further, I think that owing to the reduced harmonic richness, AM can support much deeper and complex modulation structures than FM without devolving into noise. Now, that doesn't mean at all that this is theoretically interesting in any way. However, there are vast numbers of synths that are not theoretically interesting and yet people exploit them to make noise. Every circuit bent instrument in existence as just one example.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10120 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:55 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:
Ingonator wrote:Admiral Quality Poly-Ana has AM, FM and PM (phase modulation) available in all 3 Oscs and each Osc could be used as a source (besides other sources).

With the 2 modulation mixers you could create complex modulations (including the 3 Oscs as sources) and then use the mixers as a complex mod source in the 3 oscillators (for AM, FM and/or PM).


I don't know anything about poly-ana, are those audio rate modulations and can you then modulate the level (non audio rate) with an EG?


Well i meant using the 3 Oscs as a source which means audio rate.

In Poly-Ana the 3 Oscs could be routed to several parameters.

In each of the 3 Oscs this includes (those could be used all at once for each Osc):
1) AM
2) FM
3) Waveform Mod or Dest Mod
4) PW Mod or Phase Mod

Amounts go up to 10 which is a very high value. An AM amount of 1.0 also corresponds to a value of 1.0 in e.g. Serum but you could go much higher in Poly-Ana.
First in Poly-Ana i used a maximum amount of 10 and was confused that the result is totally different.


If you cannot control the amount of modulation from one oscillator to another with an envelope, then you are not achieving the complexity that I'm talking about. Again, I don't know. However, I contend that any synth designed primarily to be a subtractive synth is likely to fall short here. This really is the province of modular environments. Three oscillators will require three envelopes to have a basic A->B->C structure. That is the minimum that has proven to be interesting in my own experiments so far.
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11546 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:12 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

aciddose wrote:Although this is additive, AM, FM and subtractive all at once. If you input pure sine-waves as carrier and modulator and used half depth (single quadrant) AM it is identical to ring mod with the carrier mixed in.

ring mod = sum + difference of modulator and carrier partials
AM = ring mod + carrier

So that would be rather boring.

You can also think of it this way:
AM = sum + difference + carrier
ring mod = AM - carrier


Actually that difference is also easily audible and could be also seen in a spectrum analyzer.

Here is a combined screenshot of a spectrum using AM and RM (ring modulation) in Serum using two Sine oscillators (modulator 3 octaves higher):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... on%201.png
Image

In the AM example you could clearly hear the Sine of the carrier (the big peak at the left of the spectrum) in the mix while this is missing in the RM example.

As the carrier signal does not "shine through" in the RM it could be seen as a "cleaner" version of this kind of modulation between two oscillators.


A ring modulator seems to be included in many more synths than a dedicated implementation of AM so in practical use ring modulation might be much better known.

In synths where the ring modulation output is added in the Osc mixer (for example in the Bass Station 2, UltraNova, Waldorf Nave and Waldorf Largo that i mentioned earlier) you could also add the carrier Osc in the mixer to get a result comparable to what is shown with AM above.
Last edited by Ingonator on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10120 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:55 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:As the carrier signal does not "shine through" in the RM it could be seen as a "cleaner" version of this kind of modulation between two oscillators.


Sure, in fact, this dominance of the carrier is a blessing and a curse. It is what makes AM patches "boring", but also what keeps them "centered" so to speak. You won't stray far from the carrier in a chain.

In synths where the ring modulation output is added in the Osc mixer (for example in the Bass Station 2, UltraNova, Waldorf Nave and Waldorf Largo that i mentioned earlier) you could also add the carrier Osc in the mixer to get a result comparable to what is shown with AM above.


Yes, this is very common. RM is often just an input to the mixer and what you say is correct, you essentially get AM by mixing in whichever source oscillator you view as the carrier.

I should add at this point that I think that more is needed than what FM6 provides out of the box to make effective use of these ideas. My modifications permit much more complex modulation schemes than are possible with the built in AM/RM operators and there's no real way around this owing to how the EG is routed within the ensemble. One could modify the existing operators, however, I think that my global modification was the better approach. That said, I still think that it's more interesting to combine the ideas of AM and FM in the same matrix of operators type synth, however, the matrix for AM will be substantially different than the matrix for FM.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10120 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:16 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ok, so here is another sound that is characteristic of what I was referring to earlier. Here you can hear the evolving amplitude modulation as the sound plays. This is the result of each operator having its own envelope and having the amplitude of the operator a function of that envelope plus the incoming operator's AM strength. I am not suggesting at all that this is an awesome sound. It took all of about thirty seconds to dial in while I was testing a simpler platform for experimentation.

https://soundcloud.com/ghettosynth/fmexample3

So, about that platform. Anyone who's done any significant Reaktor development knows that modern U/I development leads to something of an explosion in the complexity of the code. So while I would love to use the best Reaktor ensembles as a basis for experiments, they are not conducive to changing things quickly. Also. I think that this idea is most useful in the context of an FM synth where you have both AM and FM modulation matrices. To that end I'm working with an old ensemble, unfortunately named FM8, and frankly, rather lame overall, but, it has a trivial to duplicate modulation matrix and this makes it very rapid to modify and adapt to different configurations.

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/1791/

I'm reluctant to share code at this point because this is just an experimental platform for me, however, in the interest of furthering conversation, here's a screenshot of the synth as currently modified so you can get an idea of what I'm doing if you want to embark on similar experiments yourself.

Image
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
10120 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:29 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

So just one more example for today. This sound is a slight adaptation of the previous sound by switching to square waves for the modulators and dialing in a slight amount of FM modulation from operator one to operator three. Again, I only spent a few seconds with this, it's not at all built from first principles, rather, I'm just playing around with this to see what comes out. Sorry for the click at the end, I stopped the recorder too soon and didn't wait for the lowest sounding tone to die out.

https://soundcloud.com/ghettosynth/fmamexample4
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aciddose
KVRAF
 
11568 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Postby aciddose; Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:55 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Another thing you might try is differentiation or integration of the signals between "operators".

For example: "PM" or "phase modulation" as is actually used in "FM" synthesizers is equal to FM where the modulator has been run through a differentiator. A differentiator is easiest to implement as a single RC high-pass filter with a low cutoff frequency combined with a make-up gain stage. The lower the cutoff the better, but this requires higher make-up gain.

Likewise for a practical integrator: an easy implementation is a low-pass filter with a very low cutoff frequency and make-up gain.

For sine/cosine waves this is not important because integration and differentiation shift the phase +90 or -90 and transform sine into cosine, or cosine into sine while also changing the amplitude. So in the case of "PM" vs. FM, given that the inputs are sines the two methods produce identical results except that the modulation index must be different.

For other waveforms however you might find you get very different results depending upon whether you use PM or FM or integration and differentation. It also has the effect of creating a "key tracking" for modulation index.
User avatar
Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11546 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:45 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

KV331 Audio Synthmaster 2.8 offers Ring modulation, AM and/or FM for both layers and each of the two main Oscs in each layer (in Basic mode, there are also other Osc modes).

In the "Basic" Osc mode each layer has two main oscillators (= carriers) and 4 Modulator Oscs (those 4 could also do additional FM or phase modulation with each other to do more complex FM).

In the main oscillators you could selct an AM source and/or FM source from a drop-down menu which includes one of the Modulators or a combination (addition or multiplication) of two of them.

The volume of the Modulator Osc usually sets the RM/AM/FM amount which could be modulated.

By default using an AM source leads to ring modulation but if you change the "Offset" (DC Offset) parameter in the Modulator from the minimum value (default) to the maximum you get AM (amplitude modulation).
Modulation of the Offset could result in a "morph" between RM and AM.

Adding RM/AM/FM seems to be possible with all available oscillator types icnluding Basic, additive, vector and wavetable.

Using the Modulators is also decribed in this older video about Synthmaster 2 (the latest version has some differences and/or additional features):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev7Sh_OMxDQ
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11546 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:52 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:
Ingonator wrote:Admiral Quality Poly-Ana has AM, FM and PM (phase modulation) available in all 3 Oscs and each Osc could be used as a source (besides other sources).

With the 2 modulation mixers you could create complex modulations (including the 3 Oscs as sources) and then use the mixers as a complex mod source in the 3 oscillators (for AM, FM and/or PM).


I don't know anything about poly-ana, are those audio rate modulations and can you then modulate the level (non audio rate) with an EG?


Well i meant using the 3 Oscs as a source which means audio rate.

In Poly-Ana the 3 Oscs could be routed to several parameters.

In each of the 3 Oscs this includes (those could be used all at once for each Osc):
1) AM
2) FM
3) Waveform Mod or Dest Mod
4) PW Mod or Phase Mod

Amounts go up to 10 which is a very high value. An AM amount of 1.0 also corresponds to a value of 1.0 in e.g. Serum but you could go much higher in Poly-Ana.
First in Poly-Ana i used a maximum amount of 10 and was confused that the result is totally different.

The 3 Oscs (audio rate) could be also routed to:
- Filter 1 Cutoff or Filter 1 Resonance (both if you do not use a filter envelope modulation too)
- Filter 2 Cutoff or Filter 2 Resonance (both if you do not use a filter envelope modulation too)
- Amplifier 1 panning or Amplifier 1 Volume/Amplitude
- Amplifier 2 panning or Amplifier 2 Volume/Amplitude

All those options mentioned got a dedicated drop-down menu with multiple mod source options that also include the oscillators (OSC-1 to OSC-3).

For more complex modulations you could combine up to 4 mod sources wit hthe 2 "modulation mixers".
Each of the up to 4 modulations could be a multiplication(*) or addition (+) and each of the 4 steps has an adjustable amount.
The result of the mod mixer could the selected as e.g. "Mix-1" or "Mix-2" in the mod source drop-down menus of the parameters in the lists above.

In the mod mixer you could combine an oscillator output with e,g, an envelope to modulate e.g. the AM amount. For example for the AM in Osc 1 instead of Osc 2 as a mod source you then choose "Mix-1".


While Synthmaster alraedy offers some graet AM/RM/FM options which could be quite complex i just re-checked Poly-Ana.

Alone the fact that each of the 3 oscillators could do AM, FM and DX7 like phase modulation (PM) and all of those at the same time coudl lead to really complex results, not to forget that you could use any of the 3 main Oscs and one of the two modulation mixers as a source for each of those.
The phase modulation and FM could indeed deliver different results where the result of PM are close or similar to that in a DX7.
Use that with all 3 Oscs and you could get some really crazy stuff wher an oscillator acts bot has a carrier and modulator for different kinds of audio rate modulations.

This gets even more crazy if you combine multiple oscillators in the 2 modulation mixers where in each you could mix up to 4 sources to create one new mod source.
The mixing options in the modulation mixer include multiplication so you could create ring modulation that is usable as a mod source for the AM, FM and PM in the 3 oscillators (and also for the filters and the Amps).
As mentioned earlier in combination with a oscillator you could also include an envelope or LFO in the mod mixer that does multiplication with the Osc source to e.g. modulate the amount of AM if the mod mixer is routed to the AM amount.

The 2 modulation mixers also got a rectifier feature taht could be added to the output.

As Poly-Ana suports both waveform motphing and dedicated PWM and by adding those you could get even more complex results. This could be done at audio rate too using the 3 oscillators and/or the mod mixers.

Each of teh mod source drop-down menus in Poly-ana also includes teh oscillators for doing audio rate modulation. Another synth where this seems to be possible is e.g. DUNE 2.5.
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
Halonmusic
KVRist
 
469 posts since 13 Nov, 2015, from Norway

Postby Halonmusic; Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:45 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Isnt AM a form of RM but without a carrier?
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11546 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:06 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Halonmusic wrote:Isnt AM a form of RM but without a carrier?


As i tried to explain in one of my previous posts at this page sound wise RM is like AM but without the carrier added in output so RM is more "pure" in terms of a modulated output while AM also adds the carrier signal to the output.
In both cases you need a modulator and a carrier Osc and if you flip both (carrier becomes modulator and vice versa) you should receive a different result.

If you got a synth where the ring modulator is a part of the osc mixer you could get a similar result as Am by adding the carrier to the mix.
In hardware synths RM (ring modulation) seems to be much more common than AM which might be different with modular synths.
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
Halonmusic
KVRist
 
469 posts since 13 Nov, 2015, from Norway

Postby Halonmusic; Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:54 am Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Ingonator wrote:
Halonmusic wrote:Isnt AM a form of RM but without a carrier?


As i tried to explain in one of my previous posts at this page sound wise RM is like AM but without the carrier added in output so RM is more "pure" in terms of a modulated output while AM also adds the carrier signal to the output.
In both cases you need a modulator and a carrier Osc and if you flip both (carrier becomes modulator and vice versa) you should receive a different result.

If you got a synth where the ring modulator is a part of the osc mixer you could get a similar result as Am by adding the carrier to the mix.
In hardware synths RM (ring modulation) seems to be much more common than AM which might be different with modular synths.


Right, that's what i though.
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planetearth
KVRian
 
1218 posts since 10 Jul, 2006, from Tampa

Postby planetearth; Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:18 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

Well, I appreciate what everyone has contributed here, and I've learned more about the different types of synthesis, too. I'm even more aware of AM synthesis options in synths now (including SQL-80, where I noticed and experimented with it last night).

It's a bit of a shame the OP didn't come back to see some of these answers or give everyone a better idea of what he wanted. But I think this thread (and the examples you've all provided) will help others who are looking into this.

Thanks again!

Steve
Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife.
phace
KVRist
 
156 posts since 21 Mar, 2015

Postby phace; Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:38 pm Re: Can you reccomend an AM synth plugin?

planetearth wrote:It's a bit of a shame the OP didn't come back to see some of these answers or give everyone a better idea of what he wanted.

There's no way that I'm reading all of this now. In the future when I have time.. :tu:
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