KVR Audio

yul · Post by **yul** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:12 pm

Hello! Using mostly digital focused plugins today and sticking with real hw analogs when I need to. I am feeling the need to re-evaluate at this point.

Leaving immediacy/hardware workflow aside and having tested a few popular plugs many months ago, I can say were are all very impressive especially since ZDF appeared and lower CPU, aliasing with many analog-ish non-linearities.

That said, I believe there might still be small shortcomings i.e. like higher modulation rates (FM/cross mod, filter mod) vs true analogs. Is that still the case? I believe the Roland JP boutiques would break down under some level of modulation strain (not sure about the System-8) but haven't checked in the VST world.

What about oscillator/VCO quality. Can we say that they are mostly the same from a blind test perspective at this point today? I have heard some youtube a/b but they are in controlled setting with specific patches.

I thought I'd ask instead of just auditioning every synth again and especially appreciate outside opinion on the matter.

Again, what's available today is already truly outstanding (U-He, Synapse, XILS, Tal, etc..).

Thanks

izonin · Post by **izonin** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:50 pm

Good question.

IMHO the remaining gap is only noticeable from a purely scientific perspective. What you said is basically true. If we explore the extremities, like high modulation rates and full filter resonance, there are still areas where you can spot the "digital" even in the best emulations.
From a musical perspective, though, these tiny imperfections are almost insignificant.

Btw if you want to hear what future synths with super high oversampling will sound like, try running NI Monark at ~1MHz. At that rate the digital artifacts are completely eliminated.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:17 am

I’d say that you are correct in thinking that for many synth sounds, a plug in is very hard to discern from the real deal, but when using audio rate modulation, osc sync, feedback and distortion, their flaws start to show. The ones that are good in those respects, are pretty high in CPU use and/or low in voice count. Though, most analogs are pretty limited in voice count as well.

But, I’d totally disagree about those types of analog synthesis techniques being “from a musical perspective... almost insignificant.” I use them all the time, especially distortion. Listen to the sound of the new Moog’s drive or Sequential’s distortion on the Prophet 6. Listen to the sound of the Bass Station 2 with it’s headphone out fed back into it’s input with the gain up. Don’t tell me that there’s a plugin that’l do just as well, because there isn’t.

So, every now and then someone will post a a/b test to see if we can hear the difference. Usually it’s part of a sales pitch to buy a sound set. The sounds portrayed are always very safe types of sounds. If that’s all you care about, then you could probably ditch your hardware and live happily with software. If you tend to go a bit more aggressive and love the character of a real analog, it’s still the way to go, IMO. You don’t even have to break the bank to get there. So, I end up keeping a few analogs around. I happen to feel they do give some mojo to what ever I’m working on, even if I stil use a lot of plugin instruments.

braj · Post by **braj** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:33 am

The only gap I notice is the fan noise from my computer.

djanthonyw · Post by **djanthonyw** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:17 am

A Minimoog emulation.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:20 am

EDM.

When you say "impeccable analog" you are talking about recording to tape right? Otherwise...

See, analog has it's place and it sounds great, but so does everything else. Stop thinking about what you SHOULD be doing and start asking yourself why something sounds good in the first place. There are musical sounds everywhere in the world. Can you recognize them and most importantly CAN YOU PLAY THEM?

It's not about analog vs digital anymore...that was 20 years ago. It's an archaic argument.

Just in case this isn't a bait thread, there are old arguments for the digital side that are total BS. .... like digital is cheaper.... BS. you still have to keep up the hardware. You still have to have up to date systems if you want to invest in the latest and greatest. Is that what you want? There some pretty smart folks that have never moved from 32 bit still today. .... now, it works both ways right? To me that is the opposite extreme. Is running an old 32 bit system the same a running analog?

Stop Imitating. if you know what sounds musical and you are able to play it, none of this is a question in the first place. It's just a matter of what your audience has come to expect.

xalama qo · Post by **xalama qo** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:23 am

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:25 am

yul wrote:Again, what's available today is already truly outstanding (U-He, Synapse, XILS, Tal, etc..).

Not to forget NI... Monark and Reaktor are simply superb.

What i still miss a bit is a richly featured VA synth, with a lot of unison, which sounds like dedicated analog emulations. There are a couple of synths which get close to that now though. And, eventually, we'll get there. On the other hand, it'd still be nice to retain the "typical digital" stuff though, like stable oscillators, and low, or no saturation in the signal path. On the other hand, i won't complain though. What we have now is really great IMO.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:34 am

xalama qo wrote:??

At some point the counter culture becomes popular culture. Ask nirvana.

.jon · Post by **.jon** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:51 am

Sound quality, longevity, look and feel. Basically the gap between a software plugin and a musical instrument.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:05 am

chk071 wrote:
yul wrote:Again, what's available today is already truly outstanding (U-He, Synapse, XILS, Tal, etc..).
Not to forget NI... Monark and Reaktor are simply superb.

What i still miss a bit is a richly featured VA synth, with a lot of unison, which sounds like dedicated analog emulations. There are a couple of synths which get close to that now though. And, eventually, we'll get there. On the other hand, it'd still be nice to retain the "typical digital" stuff though, like stable oscillators, and low, or no saturation in the signal path. On the other hand, i won't complain though. What we have now is really great IMO.

I think when Synapse puts the Legend filter into Dune, we’ll get your wish. Not that Dune 2’s bad as it is. I love it, but it could use a juicer filter. I do wonder if it’ll be able to get the detail that Legend gets at the voice count that Dune does pretty easily without breaking the ol’ CPU. I’m not a massive unison voice guy though, so I’ll just be happy to get some decent unison voices with wavetables and a great Model D filter model. Legend and Dune both are very good at audio rate filter modulation.

Here’s something. Why doesn’t someone do an Andromeda emulation? I know some comparisons to Strobe were made at some point, but I’m talking about a proper high quality 1:1 emulation. I’d be on board for that. There’s your lots of unison voices from VCOs.

waiting man · Post by **waiting man** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:20 am

Warm psus.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:31 am

waiting man wrote:Warm psus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY-xFP7HdEg

egbert101 · Post by **egbert101** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:11 am

Aloysius · Post by **Aloysius** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:31 am

People don't really like totally s*itty sound. They like to be able to control which artifacts, and in what amount they add.

What's the remaining gap for impeccable analog modelling today?