Is it time for a post-modern interpretation of nineties music?

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id like a clinical analysis of the track please :)

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Picked up a broken filter bank and made a classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDwwajSQVWk

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I really don't think modern festival EDM is even trying to fill the same niche as the stuff you're posting.

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wagtunes wrote:No, I simply pointed out, given the construction of the song, that others could consider it and other constructions like it crap.

I'm looking at this completely from a clinical standpoint. Again, if you want me to do a construction analysis of the song on a purely clinical basis, I can. I was trying to avoid that.

But the fact still remains, I have not personally said whether or not I liked or didn't like the song. You are simply making assumptions based on my clinical observation. An observation I could make about any song of any genre given the components of said song.
It's an assumption based on your tastes, as stated numerous times on this very forum. You don't really have to say anything.

I think much of this is because you come from a more conventional music ethos and many of the producers that came up through the late 80s and early 90s came in via a very different route of DJ techniques, sampling, hip hop and plunderphonics, much of which was not considered "music" at the time and was made by people that were not musically trained, much of which limited the form to an extent but also, without regard as to what was "right" musically, resulted in some fairly unique sounds and harmonic ideas that gave much of that music its distinctive sound, one example being the use of sampled chords being played melodically resulting in "incorrect" parallel harmonies which added a disorientating quality to many of the tunes. I think Public Enemy are a far better point to understanding the creative context at the time than the pop music that preceded it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWTE1Uj9Z8c

At a clinical level, you could say that the tune is some dissonant pads, some vocal samples, some subs/808 kicks, the ubiquitous hoover sample and a cut-up breakbeat, but then you could say that the majority of James Brown's repertoire were just endless loops of drums, guitar, bass and brass playing the same riff with occasional vocal repeats - start to see the connection? It's about using every element as a rhythmic device or effect to move the crowd. Regardless of the clinical value of the tune, at a visceral level, which is ultimately what really counts with dance music, this tune and many like it got an incredible reaction when I've played them in DJ sets in the past. :party:

Maybe a 15 year old could make this now (and to be honest, most people making it then probably weren't much older, having spoken to a friend who went to the same school as rave act SL2 who played a warehouse party on Saturday, recorded Top of the Pops on Sunday while coming down from the night before and then were back in class the next day). It was people making music that they wanted to hear without regards for what previous generations considered ok, and even the house heads and Detroit techno originators thought that the British mutation was an act of cultural vandalism.

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wagtunes wrote:2) There is nothing really "new" here even as of the 90s. This style of song can be traced back to the early 70s and a "hit" by the Chakachas.
Nope. It goes further back to the 60s and this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM
wagtunes wrote:I will conclude with this. Today, any 15 year old with a DAW can easily make this track and has.
I challenge you to make a jungle track as good as that one. Yeah, if you take a clinical look at its constituent parts it might seem easy. But to get it right, it honestly is not easy at all.

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It would be a matter of practice, but I think Wags' claim that modern tools could make (relatively) short work of that track is valid.

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shonky wrote:
wagtunes wrote:No, I simply pointed out, given the construction of the song, that others could consider it and other constructions like it crap.

I'm looking at this completely from a clinical standpoint. Again, if you want me to do a construction analysis of the song on a purely clinical basis, I can. I was trying to avoid that.

But the fact still remains, I have not personally said whether or not I liked or didn't like the song. You are simply making assumptions based on my clinical observation. An observation I could make about any song of any genre given the components of said song.
It's an assumption based on your tastes, as stated numerous times on this very forum. You don't really have to say anything.

I think much of this is because you come from a more conventional music ethos and many of the producers that came up through the late 80s and early 90s came in via a very different route of DJ techniques, sampling, hip hop and plunderphonics, much of which was not considered "music" at the time and was made by people that were not musically trained, much of which limited the form to an extent but also, without regard as to what was "right" musically, resulted in some fairly unique sounds and harmonic ideas that gave much of that music its distinctive sound, one example being the use of sampled chords being played melodically resulting in "incorrect" parallel harmonies which added a disorientating quality to many of the tunes. I think Public Enemy are a far better point to understanding the creative context at the time than the pop music that preceded it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWTE1Uj9Z8c

At a clinical level, you could say that the tune is some dissonant pads, some vocal samples, some subs/808 kicks, the ubiquitous hoover sample and a cut-up breakbeat, but then you could say that the majority of James Brown's repertoire were just endless loops of drums, guitar, bass and brass playing the same riff with occasional vocal repeats - start to see the connection? It's about using every element as a rhythmic device or effect to move the crowd. Regardless of the clinical value of the tune, at a visceral level, which is ultimately what really counts with dance music, this tune and many like it got an incredible reaction when I've played them in DJ sets in the past. :party:

Maybe a 15 year old could make this now (and to be honest, most people making it then probably weren't much older, having spoken to a friend who went to the same school as rave act SL2 who played a warehouse party on Saturday, recorded Top of the Pops on Sunday while coming down from the night before and then were back in class the next day). It was people making music that they wanted to hear without regards for what previous generations considered ok, and even the house heads and Detroit techno originators thought that the British mutation was an act of cultural vandalism.
I actually agree with pretty much everything you just said. And yes, James Brown was pretty much that. Mind you, I was not a big James Brown fan even though he was smack dab in the middle of the era that I grew up in. However, as I began to get into his kind of music and all the offshoots that came from it, I began to develop an appreciation for it. As you said, ultimately it comes down to how it makes people feel regardless of how technically musical it was.

My reason for bringing all this up in the first place was your comment about Glowstix being BS. I'd think that somebody who is obviously open-minded about music as yourself wouldn't do the one thing you've accused me of doing. Okay, maybe it's not your cup of tea, but others have just as much a right to enjoy as you have a right to enjoy what you like without being made to feel like they're idiots for liking that stuff. Because that's what people do when they belittle others music. And my friends used to do that all the time growing up. "You like THAT?" With the big laugh at the end. I hated it then and I hate it now. Because, as I pointed out to them at the time, there's gonna be somebody out there who thinks what you like is crap too.

But people don't get it. They'd rather tear down others tastes if it doesn't agree with theirs than just acknowledge that everybody loves different stuff. That's what I was trying to point out, maybe not in the most elegant way. Point is, I'm not criticizing the song you posted, though others might and give perfectly valid reasons, given the "song" structure.

Personally, not that this matters, I liked the song. It had an odd feeling to it that's hard to describe. The use of the samples was unnerving. And that doesn't happen to me often. So yeah, the piece did make me feel something. And while I've thought of doing a Jungle CD, I haven't because I know I'd only be copying others and wouldn't be bringing anything "new" to the table. So I stay away from it. But trust me, I have done some strange stuff in my day and can absolutely understand people not liking it or even getting it. And while I may not personally like Rap or Reggae, I don't put the genres down as not being "music" or being BS. If you had just said you didn't care for Glowstix, I wouldn't have even responded. But when people call other folks music "BS" that bugs me because, to me, that's being elitist. And I expect better from musicians. That's all.

But the truth is, that's a sad fact of life. All my classical friends putting down rock as not being "music" or my rock friends putting down classical as being for nerds. When it sinks to that level, that's when I get pissed off. And that's how your remark came off to me, dismissing somebody else's music simply because you don't like it.

Like I said, I expect better from musicians.

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Vortifex wrote:
wagtunes wrote:2) There is nothing really "new" here even as of the 90s. This style of song can be traced back to the early 70s and a "hit" by the Chakachas.
Nope. It goes further back to the 60s and this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZuq57_bYM
Well, if you say so. But Amen Brother is infinitely more musical than the Chakachas "Jungle Fever" will ever be. But whatever. I don't care enough to argue it.

As for how easy or hard it would be for ME to do that track, that's equally as pointless as it's been pointed out more times than once that I have zero talent and couldn't even get kick and snare to sound good. But an average talented 15 year old who's been doing this stuff for a couple of years could easily put that track together. I mean there isn't that much to it. Again, if you want me to dissect the song I will, but I honestly don't care enough to do so.

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wagtunes wrote: My reason for bringing all this up in the first place was your comment about Glowstix being BS. I'd think that somebody who is obviously open-minded about music as yourself wouldn't do the one thing you've accused me of doing. Okay, maybe it's not your cup of tea, but others have just as much a right to enjoy as you have a right to enjoy what you like without being made to feel like they're idiots for liking that stuff. Because that's what people do when they belittle others music. And my friends used to do that all the time growing up. "You like THAT?" With the big laugh at the end. I hated it then and I hate it now. Because, as I pointed out to them at the time, there's gonna be somebody out there who thinks what you like is crap too.
They can enjoy what they like, I'm expressing a preference as to what I like and also what I don't (I don't think anyone likes everything do they?). I don't rate much of the festival EDM (AKA glowstick BS) but clearly given that it plays at festivals rather than small clubs, I'm guessing what I think doesn't really matter too much. To me, it's the musical equivalent of an overly loud person trying to get attention and then having nothing to say, I feel zero emotional investment with the tunes and find the sound design an attempt to distract from the nothingness of the tune rather than enhance it. So yeah, to my mind, BS, YMMV :wink:

But then again, I find something within that which resonates with me, this song for example has many elements that I tend to dislike (e.g. pumping sidechaining, pedestrian beats, trancey synths) but it's really quite beautiful, lush and surprisingly intimate for an essentially stadium tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKi9Z-f6qX4
wagtunes wrote:Personally, not that this matters, I liked the song. It had an odd feeling to it that's hard to describe. The use of the samples was unnerving. And that doesn't happen to me often. So yeah, the piece did make me feel something.
I think that odd feeling is what drew me to hardcore, jungle and dnb in the first place, the first jungle tunes I heard made me think "wtf is this craziness?" which is generally a pretty good start to my mind and, beyond hip hop, inspired me to get a sampler and make my own music.

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Last edited by egbert101 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
<List your stupid gear here>

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yung-forever wrote:It would be a matter of practice, but I think Wags' claim that modern tools could make (relatively) short work of that track is valid.
I do agree. I consider jungle an 'extreme' genre of music. It's very high tempo, it's aggressive and generally doesn't have a pleasant sound to it. If someone has never been to a rave and they hear jungle or something like it completely out of the environment where it makes more sense then I don't blame them for thinking "WTF is this noise?" For me the sound of jungle is tied up with my experience of all those 90s raves I went to (and the ecstasy I took), so when I hear it I'm thinking of the effect it has on a crowd of ravers having their bones rattled by an unreasonably loud sound system.

^ PS I heard that Deadmau5 track posted above and was underwhelmed by it. Tycho and Ulrich Schnauss do that stuff much better.

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Jungle was absolutely f**king marvellous 'back in the day', then it seemed some nuggets decided to take all the fun, interesting bits out of it (i.e. the reggae influenced bits and crazy cut-up drums), and call it drum and bass so they could sell it to a load of trendy clubbing wankers. I'll say what I mean next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjlm1u1ofkk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj7EO2uVfDQ

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An old MovingShadow record bag I use as an overnight bag now sitting in my old guy recliner. Ironic, ain’t it?


Edit: I’m having troubles uploading pic from iPhone, probably me doing something wrong...


Edit, edit: maybe it’s Mozilla mobile browser?

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donkey tugger wrote:Jungle was absolutely f**king marvellous 'back in the day', then it seemed some nuggets decided to take all the fun, interesting bits out of it (i.e. the reggae influenced bits and crazy cut-up drums), and call it drum and bass so they could sell it to a load of trendy clubbing wankers. I'll say what I mean next time.
"Intelligent drum and bass" :dog:

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