Now I Understand Why People Hate iLok

[vurt]

i don't even have a dongle.

lost it in a strimmer accident

[Compyfox]

I'm not a fan of dongles. I avoid any and all software that forces me to use them. Recently I made an exception for Vienna Ensemble Pro because there isn't any alternative and I needed it. But VEP uses eLicensor, rather the ilok. But here is the interesting thing, eLicensor is designed in a way such that it will not ever have the kinds of problems Wag is reporting about. Once your license is on the dongle, its supposed to work without EVER requiring any kind of connection to the internet, etc.

Fun fact(!!!) - you DO NOT need to be online at all for iLok licenses to work either. Both the eLicenser and iLok Managers only need online if you want to activate a license.

Now here comes the scary part... Recently it came to my attention that VSL has a policy that if you lose your dongle or it is stolen, then you basically lost the product. They think of it like a piece of jewelry. If you lose it, you lose it. They do allow their customers to rebuy the product at a 50% discount if that ever happens. WTF? So basically if you plunk down $5000 for VSL Cube full edition and you ever lose your dongle...its gonna cost another $2500 to get it back again. If you damage the dongle or if the dongle just fails because its a piece of electronics that just might do that, they require you to send the dongle to them and then they charge $20 PER PRODUCT LICENSE to restore your licenses to the new dongle.

*ugh* I'm glad you didn't use the "stolen car" analogy regurgitation that is used over and over and over again.

Another fun fact - recovering iLok licenses aren't free either. And the biggest grime that ppl have, is that the iLok ZDT is only for one year, not "pay once" and then it's gone once it triggers. Not only that, there are just a limited amounts of "iLok return centers"; resulting in unnecessary long down times for working. This is what I consider an issue - everything else, is manageable.

ok so what is the point of all this? The point is that iLok is able to avoid the problem VSL is handling, by having a system that does rely a bit on connecting to the internet and is a more elaborate system in some ways. The downside is, it might have a problem one day like Wag has been experiencing and then you can't work. eLicensor gets around that by making the dongle more fool proof and garantee's that once the license on the dongle, it will just always work...but the downside is that if you lose or damage your dongle, you will be totally SOL..it might as well be your grandmother's wedding ring.

Oh NOW I get it. You talk about the new "Cloud" concept of iLok. Aaaaaah...

But seriously... no - USB eLicenser and iLok USB are both pretty much fool proof and you do not(!) need to be online if your licenses are on the USB stick. The devil is always in the details.

Personally I can't stand dongles.. I don't think the manufactures are saving any money by using them, in fact I think they are losing money because it costs them more money I don't personally think they are gaining any customers over what they would get if they just used the same copy protection everyone else is using. And they massively inconvenience customers with them. Any time I have a choice between a product that uses a dongle and an competing product without a dongle, I'm using the one without a dongle. VSL was the first in a long time I was willing to make an exception. I was thinking about picking up their Cube Full product, but given their current policy I probably will not.

Ever thought about that both iLok2/3 (aside from minor leaks - or currently mostly attacked "software licenser only" versions) and Elicenser bound releases are fairly save from illegal software distribution? Ever thought why companies actually go that route? Or what about the latest trend: subscription models?

Here, license engines like Syncrosoft Elicenser and Pace/iLok offer tools that make it easy for companies without coding their own propriety engine (which can have gaping security holes, or might be wonky to boot, etc).


Why does this always turn into USB CP bashing, if the really bad CP is actually C/R (if the server is gone, your licenses are gone - case in point: Camel Audio, Kjaerhus Audio, etc). People just blend that kind of stuff out as if it's "not relevant". It's always just the bad, bad USB key solutions to blame.

You know what? I'm in the minority with this - but I actually embrace these solutions. Because I can just (re)install software and just need to plug in an USB key, then get going. No need to do overly complicated shake-hands mechanisms with Challenge & Response that not only need online rigs but also email confirmations, no custom managers for this nonsense, no hope that things don't break if I change an HDD, etc. Serial is also okay, as long as it's handled simple (not always the case!). Some people might even say "screw all that - why do we have to jump hoops - give us just the software without anything".

All good and fine. But there are ALWAYS several sides to a medal... and one of that is the "grey zone" area.

No developer is save from that - neither do warez groups stick to their own "code of honor" like "developer abc says 'please don't crack my stuff' and all warez groups stick to that" - that's just not going to happen. So pleas excuse me if I'm actually okay with using an USB key.

On the iLok controversy, there are basically two camps. Those that have had problems with it and those that haven't yet.

I've been to both sides actually - running mostly fine with either USB based system, but I also ran into the occasional hiccup. I didn't spew my "hate" however. I took it as a learning process and can therefore help others - if they want that help and are just in blind rage because "ughhhhh.... they messed up again, USB keys suck! iLok sucks! This sh#t needs to go to hell!".

That is counter productive and plain downright annoying.


So according to your "camp" analogy - I'm a special case...

How each decides to deal with it is up to them. But many of us choose to warn wherever and whoever we can that hasn't bought into it yet.

As just mentioned, that is indeed counter productive. Because you either speak from "your" bad experience and then try to share it as much as possible (which can be okay, if there is a company that keeps on messing up - see certain sticky threads in the Effects subforum). Or you're just on the fence of "this stuff forces me to jump hoops, it's bad, this is BS - DO NOT GO FOR IT, BOYCOTT THIS COMPANY".

This argumentation is always (and will always be) one sided.

[wagtunes]

Please let me make this clear again, in the 5 years I've been using iLok protected products I'd say that this problem has happened maybe a dozen times. This is the first time it's happened two days straight. It's not a chronic problem but it is an ongoing issue and something that I need to be aware of. Now that I know how to easily fix it, it isn't as big a deal. Thanks to the members for that. Again, the purpose of this thread was not to get members to help me with my problem, though I am grateful for that, but simply to acknowledge that I understand the iLok hate. It can be very annoying when you've just opened up 15 different windows of browsers and software and have to shut everything down. Now that I don't have to do that anymore (I am assuming the above fixes will work) I don't really care as much. Annoying, yes. But certainly manageable under those circumstances.

You don't have to reply to this Wag, but why not take a moment to reflect on this. What is more productive to the community as a whole here - a) letting everyone know you've now changed your position and understand why people hate iLok, starting a new thread to announce this important news to the world, or b) start a thread (or add to an existing one) to say "hey I'm having some really annoying iLok issues out of the blue, can anyone help?" With (a) you get to rage against the world, make a lot of noise and gain... I'm not sure what exactly, approval perhaps that you've now bonded with some others who don't like something. With (b), you've solved your problem, and others will remember to come back and see what worked for you and maybe help them too if they have similar experiences. As it happens you started with (a) and wound up with (b), but as you've made clear you weren't after solutions in the first place and indeed seem almost slightly exasperated with them cluttering up your original intentions, which I do find quite perplexing.

Genuinely, no need to respond, let's not have another 20 pages on Wags role at KVR, but just thought this could be quite a useful experience if you want it to be.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm grateful for the help I got here. I even said as much. But I didn't want to come to the forum going boo hoo my iLok doesn't like me, somebody help me fix this crap. My intention was truly just to let those against iLok that I sympathize with them. It can be annoying. But lots of things can be annoying. I've been working with computers since 1981. On mine and on companies. Stuff goes wrong. Relatively speaking, outside of on AIR product totally borking my Cubase to the point where I had to reinstall it, I've had very few problems in 5 years. I mean I must have had very few problems as I've recorded over 300 songs in that time. My downtime can be measured in hours, not days. So I'm not complaining. Would I love a perfect world? Sure. But it's not happening. In fact, as my hard drive is approaching 5 years old (the magic number) I know it's going to go soon and I have to start preparing for that. I'm not looking forward to having to reinstall over 100 products but that's life. You decide to work with computers, that's the price you pay.

But I do greatly appreciate the help I got in this thread. I wasn't even expecting it.

[Dewdman42]

Another fun fact - recovering iLok licenses aren't free either. And the biggest grime that ppl have, is that the iLok ZDT is only for one year, not "pay once" and then it's gone once it triggers. Not only that, there are just a limited amounts of "iLok return centers"; resulting in unnecessary long down times for working. This is what I consider an issue - everything else, is manageable.

If that is true, then I will continue to do my best to avoid any and all iLok products as well. I recently bought some EW stuff, but I believe they are now supporting a model that allows me to install the license directly on my computer instead of a dongle that can be lost, stolen or damaged and cause a great conspiracy about who paid for it.

Apparently Wag's iLok installation was not foolproof though. so...

[wagtunes]

Another fun fact - recovering iLok licenses aren't free either. And the biggest grime that ppl have, is that the iLok ZDT is only for one year, not "pay once" and then it's gone once it triggers. Not only that, there are just a limited amounts of "iLok return centers"; resulting in unnecessary long down times for working. This is what I consider an issue - everything else, is manageable.

If that is true, then I will continue to do my best to avoid any and all iLok products as well. I recently bought some EW stuff, but I believe they are now supporting a model that allows me to install the license directly on my computer instead of a dongle that can be lost, stolen or damaged and cause a great conspiracy about who paid for it.

Apparently Wag's iLok installation was not foolproof though. so...

My iLok installation is fine. I've never had a problem with licenses. My only problem, apparently, is the PACE service not starting, which appears to be a simple fix. Had I known this prior to starting this thread, I probably would have never started it.

Why?

Having to restart your PC after you've got 15 applications running is annoying as hell.

Having to go to task manager and start a service is not.

YMMV.

[fmr]

I did nothing out of the ordinary prior to the issue. I only let auto updates install on their own.

Again, my assumption is now that Windows "auto updated" messed something up.

Probably, but it shouldn't. But the fact that he is running a really old version may explain why it was affected.

Please let me make this clear again, in the 5 years I've been using iLok protected products I'd say that this problem has happened maybe a dozen times. This is the first time it's happened two days straight. It's not a chronic problem but it is an ongoing issue and something that I need to be aware of. Now that I know how to easily fix it, it isn't as big a deal. Thanks to the members for that.

If this happened more than once, then I DEFINITELY think your OS is wonky.

No, it isn't. It's the Pace thing that is "wonky" (as it always was in Windows). I experience problems every now and then. I may be OK for months, then suddenly I am instantiating a plug-in and I receive a message that it isn't authorized. I go to Services, start it manually, and solve the matter. Next day, Windows starts, and everyting is OK again. But I am at version 4 since a longtime already.

And no, disabling autoupdates doesn't seem a good idea. It's better to start the service manually every time it fails. And safer. It's curious that when something fails in OS X, people tend to blame the software manufacturers or the users, but when something fails in Windows, people tend to blame the OS.

[wagtunes]

Speaking of Windows, the other day something really strange happened on my game computer. It started up and I got a message that it could not load the user profile. I'd never seen anything like this in all my years of using Windows. Today, it started just fine.

Like I said, it's a computer. Things happen.

And the day is never going to come where these things run 100% flawlessly 100% of the time.

[BBFG#]

No Compfox, you are not a special case. You're squarely in the first camp and have just decided to bear it when it happens.

Which, even according to yourself and others, definitely does.

[Teksonik]

I accept any and every copy protection type, then you do not have to compromise on using second rate software.

Do not confuse the quality of any software with the copy protection method it uses. That's a mistake a lot of users (and developers) make......

I did not make that mistake. You are right many make the mistake of not using the best software that is available for any given task because it uses a protection method they dislike.

Yes you've made the mistake of equating the method of copy protection with "the best software". The two have nothing to do with each other......

[Compyfox]

If that is true, then I will continue to do my best to avoid any and all iLok products as well.

It is also true that this is just as limited for Syncrosoft Elicenser (more limited even).
But sure... whack into the "oh that's the case... then... boycott" scheme.

You do you.

I recently bought some EW stuff, but I believe they are now supporting a model that allows me to install the license directly on my computer instead of a dongle that can be lost, stolen or damaged and cause a great conspiracy about who paid for it.

"dongle that can be lost, stolen or damaged"

*sigh* And back to that age-old argument again as well...

It can be damaged if you're not careful with the stick, or your board has a failure that "fries" the chipset over time due to electric discharges.
It can be "stolen" if you take it with you and don't take care of it
It can be "lost" if you take it with you and don't take care of it

So this is all due to "reasons beyond the control of the companies" that you base your negativity on.
Fine...

Apparently Wag's iLok installation was not foolproof though. so...

No, it can be considered "fool proof" - it's just that I assume (still!) that something got messed up from the OS - pretty sure of it. So in this case, it's not user error but once more "reasons beyond our control" that just added up.

If wags doesn't want to dive into that - then so be it. He has to live with that, not we.

But "sympathy against the common devil" and all that, right?

I did nothing out of the ordinary prior to the issue. I only let auto updates install on their own.

Again, my assumption is now that Windows "auto updated" messed something up.

Probably, but it shouldn't. But the fact that he is running a really old version may explain why it was affected.

Nonsense. v3.1.7 is from September 2017. I don't consider that "old" - especially since there are still many, many companies where the plugins run on this version (exceptions are still possible though).

Now wags clearly stated that he let his OS "auto update". BAD MOVE IMO, you should always have control over that (the biggest criticism from studio people with Windows 10!). If there is a patch that corrupts while/after downloading, and therefore snowballs an issue, then it's not the "iLok drivers" to blame just because they're (considered) "old". It's the OS to blame.

Tell you what - I'm running Win7, Convenience Rollup and my last OS mass patch run was in November IIRC (with bundle packs from Winfuture). I don't see any wonky behavior for iLok, Elicenser, Waves licenses on USB and neither Plugin Alliance licenses on USB. And that particular USB3 stick for these licenses is actually on an USB2 port. "You're asking for problems..." probably - but nothing I can't manage apparently.

No, it isn't. It's the Pace thing that is "wonky" (as it always was in Windows). I experience problems every now and then. I may be OK for months, then suddenly I am instantiating a plug-in and I receive a message that it isn't authorized. I go to Services, start it manually, and solve the matter. Next day, Windows starts, and everyting is OK again. But I am at version 4 since a longtime already.

Oh look at that... so "it must be the iLok drivers - ever and always".

Look, I'm not saying that you do not have these issues ever so often. But maybe yours is rooted somewhere else. I also have the occasional "won't load, can't find license" issue. HOWEVER (important) that is only AFTER I updated a plugin and it wants a more modern iLok version that I didn't have installed. After that, it's gone.

So what does this boil down to?
Technically user error (you didn't update drivers), practically nobody told you to update drivers... so... cat -> tail....

And no, disabling autoupdates doesn't seem a good idea. It's better to start the service manually every time it fails. And safer. It's curious that when something fails in OS X, people tend to blame the software manufacturers or the users, but when something fails in Windows, people tend to blame the OS.

Read my point above... I'm doing "mass update packages" via WinFuture... and my last one is "months old" (*gasp* OMG! Your rig is doomed!). Hey, maybe I'm save because I didn't install that pesky "CPU security leak" patch - which could be related to this issue.

But sure... we're now down to finger pointing as to who is actually right in this conversation. Best sign for me to just back away because this will lead to nowhere (as usual).

No Compfox, you are not a special case. You're squarely in the first camp and have just decided to bear it when it happens.

Which, even according to yourself and others, definitely does.

Cool... at what distance to the line in the sand am I then?
(rhetoric question)




Enjoy your continued discussion, people.
And good luck to Wags

[Dewdman42]

If that is true, then I will continue to do my best to avoid any and all iLok products as well.

It is also true that this is just as limited for Syncrosoft Elicenser (more limited even).
But sure... whack into the "oh that's the case... then... boycott" scheme.

Its not a matter of "boycotting" and I did not use that language, so please do not put those words into my mouth. I can see that you do not respect the anti-dongle choice made by some people, and that is your choice, but really..demonizing us for making that consumer choice is lame.

This is not a "principal" based position that I take. Its simply a choice based on many different factors which include what the software can do for me, how much its going to cost and yes..how much of a hassle or risk the copy protection scheme will be to me. Based on those factors I choose as a consumer to avoid dongled software whenever possible.

In this case its simply a matter that I do not wish to take the risk of purchasing, for example, a $5000 VSL sample library which if my little plastic key gets lost or stolen, I've basically lost the $5000 sample library, or it gets damaged in any way I will have to pay more then a few bucks to regain use of my software. I do not consider that an acceptable risk to take.

[Hink]

Hi everyone, beautiful evening init? IBTP

in before the popcorn

[wagtunes]

Hi everyone, beautiful evening init? IBTP

in before the popcorn

Actually, I think we've been very civil so far.

Shocking. LOL

[digitalboytn]

On the iLok controversy, there are basically two camps. Those that have had problems with it and those that haven't yet.

[paradiddle]

Have had the same problem happen to me twice and had to restart the pace services (win 7 64 bit). That was a while back. Now it hasn't happened since. Never figured out why but it works.