Boxy...Causes And Fixes?

[Unaspected]

If you have problem "Tees" and de-essers won't cure them then you might need to go in and automate by hand. I can't say I'm crazy about the Vocaloid sound; it lacks emotion and life that could also make the track seem more dull or a little creepy. So it might be good to replace that with effects such as vocoding - which can be another way to control the high end, depending on your carrier sound.

Whenever I've heard about boxiness it's been in reference to a build-up of low mids (sounds like it's recorded in a box). Never heard it in relation to dynamics or stereo width, it's usually frequency issues. Solutions could include EQ, acoustic treatment, better monitoring, listening to reference mixes as you go, and practice.

That is my understanding - or lacking highs - but you never know what someone else is hearing. And I think that thecontrolcentre is correct in that the restricted dynamics add to the closed in, boxy sound. I guess equally that to some people, a closed in, boxy sound could mean lack of stereo width. It's impossible to say if the person commenting can't specify what is making it sound "boxy" to them.

[wagtunes]

If you have problem "Tees" and de-essers won't cure them then you might need to go in and automate by hand. I can't say I'm crazy about the Vocaloid sound; it lacks emotion and life that could also make the track seem more dull or a little creepy. So it might be good to replace that with effects such as vocoding - which can be another way to control the high end, depending on your carrier sound.

Whenever I've heard about boxiness it's been in reference to a build-up of low mids (sounds like it's recorded in a box). Never heard it in relation to dynamics or stereo width, it's usually frequency issues. Solutions could include EQ, acoustic treatment, better monitoring, listening to reference mixes as you go, and practice.

That is my understanding - or lacking highs - but you never know what someone else is hearing. And I think that thecontrolcentre is correct in that the restricted dynamics add to the closed in, boxy sound. I guess equally that to some people, a closed in, boxy sound could mean lack of stereo width. It's impossible to say if the person commenting can't specify what is making it sound "boxy" to them.

Well, stupid question time. Does it sound boxy to you? And if so, why?

[vurt]

I have no idea what boxy means. On the other hand, what i always notice on your songs, wags, is that they all sound pretty sterile/tailored/artificial. On the other hand, though, and i think that's a major point, it makes 90% of the charme, and uniqueness. It always reminds me of Japanese productions. TBH, if i was you, i wouldn't change much about it.

have to agree with this, a lot of anime end credits songs sound like the bits ive heard from wags.
i could imagine when the world ends fitting with at least a few ive seen over the years.

[wagtunes]

I have no idea what boxy means. On the other hand, what i always notice on your songs, wags, is that they all sound pretty sterile/tailored/artificial. On the other hand, though, and i think that's a major point, it makes 90% of the charme, and uniqueness. It always reminds me of Japanese productions. TBH, if i was you, i wouldn't change much about it.

have to agree with this, a lot of anime end credits songs sound like the bits ive heard from wags.
i could imagine when the world ends fitting with at least a few ive seen over the years.

You know what's funny? I'm currently working on kind of a Steely Dan funk piece with somebody over at Gearslutz. He's the creative consultant telling me what to add, change, remove, process and so on. The piece sounds so different from my normal stuff, which of course shows the advantages of collaboration. He's surprisingly easy to work with so who knows, this might turn into something.

You can hear a rough mix of it (it will probably evolve more) below.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... -rough-mix

[Unaspected]

Well, stupid question time. Does it sound boxy to you? And if so, why?

I wouldn't say so. I mentioned before, to me it sounds dry and all the sounds are up close at the front of the mix. So it does sound confined. Plus, the issue with filtering that was mentioned above.

The vocal sounds very band limited and because people listen to the voice, that could contribute to the perception of the sound being closed in. Reverb might help. Maybe run a plate through some compression on the vox.

As a slightly out there idea, you could always record a whisper track that mimics the vocal, high pass it and mix it in before the reverb to get a little more natural high end.

[wagtunes]

Well, stupid question time. Does it sound boxy to you? And if so, why?

I wouldn't say so. I mentioned before, to me it sounds dry and all the sounds are up close at the front of the mix. So it does sound confined. Plus, the issue with filtering that was mentioned above.

The vocal sounds very band limited and because people listen to the voice, that could contribute to the perception of the sound being closed in. Reverb might help. Maybe run a plate through some compression on the vox.

As a slightly out there idea, you could always record a whisper track that mimics the vocal, high pass it and mix it in before the reverb to get a little more natural high end.

Thanks for the suggestions. Technically a little over my head but I'll see what I can do next time I use her for vocals.

[Unaspected]

Well, stupid question time. Does it sound boxy to you? And if so, why?

I wouldn't say so. I mentioned before, to me it sounds dry and all the sounds are up close at the front of the mix. So it does sound confined. Plus, the issue with filtering that was mentioned above.

The vocal sounds very band limited and because people listen to the voice, that could contribute to the perception of the sound being closed in. Reverb might help. Maybe run a plate through some compression on the vox.

As a slightly out there idea, you could always record a whisper track that mimics the vocal, high pass it and mix it in before the reverb to get a little more natural high end.

Thanks for the suggestions. Technically a little over my head but I'll see what I can do next time I use her for vocals.

Don't sell yourself short. It's just a matter of layering two sounds, adding reverb and then compressing to make them sound unified. I can't say how well that will work with Vocaloid but it's got to breathe a little life into it. The most difficult aspect would be the timing and attitude of the performance of the whisper track. Though, of course, you would edit to perfect the timing after tracking.

If you want to get a little more complex, you could better shape the whisper track to the vocal by using a vocoder: With the whisper track as carrier and Vocaloid as the modulator.

Just a silly little idea though.

[wagtunes]

Well, stupid question time. Does it sound boxy to you? And if so, why?

I wouldn't say so. I mentioned before, to me it sounds dry and all the sounds are up close at the front of the mix. So it does sound confined. Plus, the issue with filtering that was mentioned above.

The vocal sounds very band limited and because people listen to the voice, that could contribute to the perception of the sound being closed in. Reverb might help. Maybe run a plate through some compression on the vox.

As a slightly out there idea, you could always record a whisper track that mimics the vocal, high pass it and mix it in before the reverb to get a little more natural high end.

Thanks for the suggestions. Technically a little over my head but I'll see what I can do next time I use her for vocals.

Don't sell yourself short. It's just a matter of layering two sounds, adding reverb and then compressing to make them sound unified. I can't say how well that will work with Vocaloid but it's got to breathe a little life into it. The most difficult aspect would be the timing and attitude of the performance of the whisper track. Though, of course, you would edit to perfect the timing after tracking.

If you want to get a little more complex, you could better shape the whisper track to the vocal by using a vocoder: With the whisper track as carrier and Vocaloid as the modulator.

Just a silly little idea though.

I'm assuming I would do the whisper track with my voice, because Vocaloids can't whisper. They don't have those kind of dynamics.

[Unaspected]

Well, stupid question time. Does it sound boxy to you? And if so, why?

I wouldn't say so. I mentioned before, to me it sounds dry and all the sounds are up close at the front of the mix. So it does sound confined. Plus, the issue with filtering that was mentioned above.

The vocal sounds very band limited and because people listen to the voice, that could contribute to the perception of the sound being closed in. Reverb might help. Maybe run a plate through some compression on the vox.

As a slightly out there idea, you could always record a whisper track that mimics the vocal, high pass it and mix it in before the reverb to get a little more natural high end.

Thanks for the suggestions. Technically a little over my head but I'll see what I can do next time I use her for vocals.

Don't sell yourself short. It's just a matter of layering two sounds, adding reverb and then compressing to make them sound unified. I can't say how well that will work with Vocaloid but it's got to breathe a little life into it. The most difficult aspect would be the timing and attitude of the performance of the whisper track. Though, of course, you would edit to perfect the timing after tracking.

If you want to get a little more complex, you could better shape the whisper track to the vocal by using a vocoder: With the whisper track as carrier and Vocaloid as the modulator.

Just a silly little idea though.

I'm assuming I would do the whisper track with my voice, because Vocaloids can't whisper. They don't have those kind of dynamics.

Yeah. That's the experimental part. But you wouldn't be using it like a parallel whisper - you would high pass it to just add top end to the Vocaloid. So there would be no body left in the whisper sound and it should imbue Vocaloid with some natural variance. The concept is to make the voice sound as one and give it some breath.

Noise shaping might work but wouldn't be as organic. Of course, I don't know exactly what this fusion would ultimately sound like but it should be mixed to add some subtle character to the overall sound.


EDIT: Or employ a human vocalist.

[leb8]

A good way to give some width to your elements (especially drums) and not drench all the percussion with reverb, which may cause lack of impact and space between the sounds is to duplicate a channel, apply some timing offset and slightly change the pitch to one of them, and even pan them differently. It's called the Haas effect, look it up. You'll find tons of info on it, and it can be applied to pretty much everything if you really want to.

[Jace-BeOS]

I took a brief listen in mono on a phone. Sometimes that points out things not noticed on proper playback devices. The drums are a bit dry and up front, but maybe that's what you wanted. The first drum fill felt like it was ducking the other elements (all of which are sort of clinically exact, sometimes called "sterile", depending on what you're seeking), so that might have some effect on the perception of the lack of dynamics and boxiness.

In this case, the "box" might be an external MIDI synth unit on the desk, being sung at by a robot

[wagtunes]

I took a brief listen in mono on a phone. Sometimes that points out things not noticed on proper playback devices. The drums are a bit dry and up front, but maybe that's what you wanted. The first drum fill felt like it was ducking the other elements (all of which are sort of clinically exact, sometimes called "sterile", depending on what you're seeking), so that might have some effect on the perception of the lack of dynamics and boxiness.

In this case, the "box" might be an external MIDI synth unit on the desk, being sung at by a robot

Yeah, the drums I wanted really dry for this one. I was going to go with the old 70s standard big ballad drum sound drenched in reverb but then decided against it. Outside of the vocals (Avanna is almost impossible to process) everything else is just as I wanted it. I was looking for a more dry room studio sound. The only thing I'm personally not pleased with is the vocals but I don't have the tech knowledge to fix her.

[Aloysius]

Use a plastic bag instead of a box. If it's too baggy, use ...

[Reefius]

I've put it in Ozone 8 and the difference is huge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SaxC49BD7U

First part is with Ozone 8 bypassed, sounds quite boxy and lifeless
Second part is with Ozone 8 enabled, sounds much better to my (also quite old) ears

As you can see in the EQ image below, I've made a HUGE cut in the mids:

EQ.jpg

[wagtunes]

I've put it in Ozone 8 and the difference is huge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SaxC49BD7U

First part is with Ozone 8 bypassed, sounds quite boxy and lifeless
Second part is with Ozone 8 enabled, sounds much better to my (also quite old) ears

As you can see in the EQ image below, I've made a HUGE cut in the mids:

EQ.jpg

OMG. What a difference. Okay, what did you do, EXACTLY? If I have to get Ozone 8 (I have Neutron 2) I'll get it.