Piano VST: The Quest to Mix Existing Libraries for a Richer Tone

[jochicago]

I've been trying to get a good solo-performance piano sound. The bar I'm setting is the quality of sound out my CP33, and I want to end up with something that I'd be happy to use for solo releases. For reference, this is the bar I'm aiming to surpass (BTW, video is not me):
youtube.com/watch?v=1JoBtXOU2Iw

So this is my first attempt, set to Tchaikovsky's June. Please listen to it closely and tear it apart so I can make progress:
https://instaud.io/2eKD

The concept:
I've tried a couple dozen piano sounds in my library but none feel solid on its own. I find I'm constantly criticizing something specific for each, like this one has too much shimmer, this one has no attack, this one sounds muddy, etc.

Then I thought, well, what if I combine the muddy one with the one that has too much shimmer?

I'm using Studio One to combine instruments. This particular attempt is 3 instruments:
1. S1 Presence Rock Grand
2. S1 Presence Pop Grand
3. Keyzone Classic Yamaha Grand

I've applied no effects. So far it is just volume mix to taste.


BTW, feel free to recommend a song for testing. I'm looking for a single-track midi piano performance with slow and fast parts, and plenty of dynamic range.

[fisherKing]

it's a bad idea; too many variables, harmonics... unique qualities. you'll just get more piano, not a better one.

find the one that feels/sounds best, eq it a bit if you have to. play with reverb (if you want). get one definitive sound, work with that.

if need be, try TWO; ie bring in some of the 2nd one for it's unique qualities. but more is, more often that not... simply more.

and now... bring on the other commentors....

[jancivil]

I think it's a singularly bad idea, reasons already touched on.

You're just asking for trouble. Too much interference, to put it in a soundbyte.
I wouldn't recommend even two doing the same part.

Here, this is me with the "Bosendorfer" in VSL Percussion SE.

https://www.youtu.be/xEWWeQGJ7zY?y=0s

using the August Foerster Grand from Kontakt 2 (x2, 2 pianos 4 hands arrangement:

https://youtu.be/euUgmiMs5Ak?y=0s

I didn't even put money into piano libraries, those came with things I bought anyway.
I do recall the latter, I started with Vienna Suite presets for one o' their pianos, which this one is, I don't know if it is a lite version or what. I've used it for years.

A lot of demos I hear are too bright, or really brittle. I like a good amt of bottom end. It's really hard to settle on a single piano so I feel your pain. I'm just posting the music to show it can be done without killing yourself over it. The more salient point out of this is probably "I mix most instruments" to get what I need. A lot of people would probably argue these are two pretty mediocre instruments, but they seem to work.

[jochicago]

Thank you for your feedback. You brought up good points.

I'm not ready to dismay yet. I noticed that some of the libraries I like are creating multi-mic mixes of the same piano to give it realism and give you control over the tone.

I was hoping to achieve the same by finding libraries that sounded like they could go together, as the equivalent of a multi-mic setup. So if I find a library that sounds pleasing but a bit distant, low on attack, then I can combine that with a piano of a similar body, but captured closer and upfront, with brightness and attack. So now you have a balanced piano sound with a nice bulkier resonance, and you can control how much attack and brightness you want by adjusting the mix.

At least that's the theory.

Here is my second attempt. I feel this one is getting realistic. I took the advice and reduced it to only 2 instruments. This time I also added FX in the form of: mild room reverb, mild slap delay, and a good dose of saturation. No EQ or Comp yet so we can hear it in detail.

Blue Eyes:
https://instaud.io/2eP6

(source: http://www.dongrays.com/midi/archive/jazz/blues/ )

The Instruments are:
- S1 Presence Studio Grand
- Estate Grand Piano LE (soundfont)

I only applied the FX to the S1 piano. The Estate Grand has lower volume and acts to add fullness, resonance, and helps glue the FXs in.

I find it still a bit bright for my taste, but I think I'm starting to achieve something.

Please listen and judge.

[jancivil]

Yes, reverb is pretty key. I'll get back to you on this, just taking a quick breath.

[Etienne1973]

4Front TruePianos are my favorite all-in-one software pianos. Hybrid physical modeling plus some samples involved. Did you already check it out?

[fmr]

Here is my second attempt. I feel this one is getting realistic. I took the advice and reduced it to only 2 instruments. This time I also added FX in the form of: mild room reverb, mild slap delay, and a good dose of saturation. No EQ or Comp yet so we can hear it in detail.

Blue Eyes:
https://instaud.io/2eP6

(source: http://www.dongrays.com/midi/archive/jazz/blues/ )

The Instruments are:
- S1 Presence Studio Grand
- Estate Grand Piano LE (soundfont)

I only applied the FX to the S1 piano. The Estate Grand has lower volume and acts to add fullness, resonance, and helps glue the FXs in.

I find it still a bit bright for my taste, but I think I'm starting to achieve something.

Please listen and judge.

The piano sounds you are using are too bright, IMO, and you are using way too much reverb. Remember that, when we listen to piano solo, usually we listen to it in a small room, or, if it's a piano recital, in a mid size room - not a concert hall. Concert Halls usually are reserved to big recitals or symphonic works with piano.

Reverb is intended to create the proper ambience. Your ambience sounds artificial, and blurs the piano sound.

Regarding the timbre. The piano libraries you are using seem to be prepared to be used in mixes, more pop/rock/jazz ensembles oriented. They are too bright, IMO. A piano usually sounds more round and sweet (more middle range and less highs), and we hear more the hammers.

True Pianos, as suggested, is a good option. Other good options are Arturia Piano V2 (much better than the previous one) and Pianoteq Stage (my favorite). True Pianos is a mix of physical modeling and sampling, while the other two are purely physical modeling. This means that you can sculpt the timbre very much to your taste, and they respond much more to touch, attack, pedalling, etc.

Here is my rendering of the file you pointed to, using the Pianoteq Steinway D Intimate preset: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q_Ggla ... sp=sharing

The reverb is Pianoteq own reverb. Even so, I find it too much, so I reduced the reverb amount by almost 6 dB.

[generaldiomedes]

Yeah wouldn’t it just be easier to purchase a higher quality piano library ? The S1 libraries wouldn't be considered top tier, if I'm not mistaken.

[jancivil]

I rendered from 'blue eyes' piano:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jn85jl8yamxnc ... o.mp3?dl=0

this is the Bosendorfer mentioned above. Quickie render, I'm a little busy.
But, the room chosen is "Nice Piano Hall Hybrid" which gives some algorithmic reverb tail onto the convolution.
I dialed back the feed to the tail from the early reflections, dialed back the predelay from that preset and made it less diffuse.

The MIDI itself has a lot of held notes and there is no pedaling in it as opened here, so the reverb in the project I had loaded was horrible for it. This isn't bad, it isn't superb but it's a couple minutes and render. I'd say the bottom and top ends are nice, I would get pickier with the middle but it's a viable piano tone with very little trouble.

I don't know what the expectation is specifically from the Yamaha piano you're used to. But I again cannot approve of having to use two pianos for a one piano part, it means there is something so deficient as a piano you find yourself stuck with, and you need to do something else.

[jancivil]

VSL Yamaha CFX at promo price

I'm not shilling! I don't even get a break having bought any piano.

t'was in my inbox. this comes with its own reverb characteristics apparently. this thing does it all!

[zenophilix]

Honestly, just don't. Sorry, I can see the thought process, but it's not going to work out. You'll be better off picking the best sounding one you've got and mixing it from there to get it to sound closer to how you like, or- ech- buying another one. Sorry.

[jochicago]

I want to thank you for sticking with me on this journey. Also big thanks for the midi renders. Gives me a lot to think.

RE: Libraries
Thank you for the suggestions. I’m exploring. Both TruePianos and the Pianoteq were on my radar as great choices. So far at the top of my list is the Wavesfactory Mercury.

RE: Piano brightness, style
I think my versions are too bright and I’m working on it, but overall I do prefer a brighter sound than the examples here. Here are two examples of the sounds I’m inspired by and also the type of music I play:

SOS by Clayderman
youtube.com/watch?v=CkQLBgAzxcE
This is an Abba cover but that reference stops at the door. This song's mood is dark and guttural. I think the piano is too bright, but a measure of brightness is needed to “speak” this way.

Ludovico Einaudi - Dietro Casa
youtube.com/watch?v=Gdey6bX7qMw
I believe he plays a Steinway. I wish this was performed on a piano with a bit more aggression.

I realize this is entirely a matter of personal taste, but to my ears the Steinway D don’t do guttural (as in strong emotions). I prefer the Yamaha sound. I like my pianos to retain all the qualities of balance and richness, but also speak brightly when played hard and show some attack when called upon. I feel that most Steinways don’t really attack even when pushed. Steinways lean more on blending the notes together, which creates an almost ethereal feeling to music, but that also hides the intensity of the melody.

For my preference in sound and playing style, I like a grand piano like the Yamaha CFX. It starts soft and blend-y like the Steinway, but goes deeper into aggression when played hard. I think this comparison does them decent justice:
youtube.com/watch?v=T2GYYV8JSqM


Renders
These 2 are simple renders. No funny business. Just one instrument and no FX:

Blue eyes - Estate Grand (soundfont)
https://instaud.io/2f0D

Blue eyes - Yamaha C5 (Salamander v3 Retuned soundfont)
https://instaud.io/2f0F

I think the Estate Grand is a good soundfont but I find it way bright and clanky. The Salamander is a beautiful soundfont, but I feel it lacks the realistic resonance of the premium VST, and could use a touch more aggressiveness.


Here is my third attempt at mixing:
Blue eyes - Salamander v3 Ret. + Estate Grand
https://instaud.io/2f1e

This one is both of the above mixed together, with the Estate Grand at -9db. The goal is to give the Salamander a touch more attack and brightness, and add overall resonance. I also added some saturation and a 2db thump to the bass.

[jochicago]

VSL Yamaha CFX at promo price

That does sound amazing. It pretty much covers everything I'm looking for. I'm not sure I'm ready to sell a guitar for it, but I'll have to ponder because it does sound perfect.

BTW, thank you for the render. I find that Bosendorfer sound too distant, and usually they are unreasonably bass-y for my taste.

[brainzistor]

The piano sounds you are using are too bright, IMO, and you are using way too much reverb.

He was using Estate Grand LE which is a sampled Kawai piano and that piano has a different sound from a typical Steinway or Yamaha sound, even strings are "buzzing" at lower notes somewhat similar to harpsichord and overall the sound is much brighter than Steinway.
I actually quite enjoyed using Estate Grand LE, a free sound library for Sforzando, because it's a different piano and its character was somehow more fitting to jazzy/fusion-ish stuff I was doing especially related to drums, piccolo snare and it was also recorded with a lot of hammer noise and higher notes have a lot of punch and brightness, unlike a typical Steinway sound.

The problem is that Steinway is all over the place and people are accustomed to that sound, when people think of piano they are imagining the sound of Steinway and when they hear different piano they are like:"This is bright, this is muddy, this is dark, this is this this is that" because they want to tame the character of that piano to sound like Steinway, your typical piano which you heard millions of times before.
If you look at all those sampled pianos out there, maybe 90% of them are sampled Steinway pianos too.
For the last 3-4 years whenever someone dumps another sampled Steinway piano I'm ignoring that completely, I'd rather hear someone's sampled fart...
You can make 200GB sampled Steinway, it's that same f...ing sound.
At one point I had 11 different sampled pianos, it's a nightmare because sampled pianos are limited and you piling them up to have different sound and literally nothing else.

That's why physical modeling is awesome, you have all those parameters to make piano to sound however you want. Arturia Piano V is awesome, Pianoteq is awesome. Once you get one of them, you are f....ing done with sampled pianos.
Same thing with MODO Bass, once you get it you are done with sampled basses, just gtfo from my hdd...
UNLESS it's some unique sound library like Orange Tree Samples Iconic Bass Jaco which is replicating the sound of Jaco Pastorius' fretless bass, that thing is amazing and inspirational sound library because it forces you to rethink about usage of bass guitar, the same way Jaco reinvented bass playing. Instead of just using bass in the back, you are soloing with bass.
Those kind of sound libraries is worth of having because they give you something unique.

[jancivil]

I know what you're saying about the Yahama, Jo. I'd buy that in a microsecond if I had the bucks.
I'm not really reliant on solo piano, anyway, though.