Login / Register 0 items | $0.00 New @ KVR
This forum is sponsored by
Bass Master from Loopmasters

Heavy, speaker-shaking tones are just a few clicks away with Bass Master. This synth is totally dedicated to bass, and it's built on Loopmasters' award-winning sonic history.

Whether you are making House, Techno, Drum and Bass, Trap, Hip Hop or other electronic music styles, Bass Master's huge variety of source sounds provide the inspiration for a weighty, powerful bass tone.

Read more at www.pluginboutique.com
User avatar
SMH
KVRist
 
148 posts since 22 Feb, 2017

Postby SMH; Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:32 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

ATN69 wrote:
SMH wrote:
ATN69 wrote:If I buy an airplane ticket I can, for a fee, transfer that airline ticket to someone else. I can sell it to someone else. I don't own the airplane but still I can sell the ticket. It's the right to have a seat on a certain flight.


I'm not sure that's the best example you could pick. http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/11/news/re ... index.html https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/11/overbooking/


I choose that analogy because you buy a service. Look at your ticket as a license. I am a frequent flyer so I know how shitty it can be just as these articles mention, but the point is you get money back or some kind of compensation at least. A software developer claiming NFR takes away any chance you have to get some money back or any kind of compensation. That's my point.


You don't get your money back if you get kicked off the flight for being belligerent or refusing to show ID. You sure you want your software developers to have those rights? :?
User avatar
ATN69
KVRAF
 
1772 posts since 5 Oct, 2015, from Swedish / Living in Hong Kong

Postby ATN69; Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:41 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

SMH wrote:
ATN69 wrote:
SMH wrote:
ATN69 wrote:If I buy an airplane ticket I can, for a fee, transfer that airline ticket to someone else. I can sell it to someone else. I don't own the airplane but still I can sell the ticket. It's the right to have a seat on a certain flight.


I'm not sure that's the best example you could pick. http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/11/news/re ... index.html https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/11/overbooking/


I choose that analogy because you buy a service. Look at your ticket as a license. I am a frequent flyer so I know how shitty it can be just as these articles mention, but the point is you get money back or some kind of compensation at least. A software developer claiming NFR takes away any chance you have to get some money back or any kind of compensation. That's my point.


You don't get your money back if you get kicked off the flight for being belligerent or refusing to show ID. You sure you want your software developers to have those rights? :?


LOL! Did I say I want software developers to have those rights? :lol: ..and how does being belligerent or refusing to show id apply on software?
Win 10 -64bit, CPU i7-7700K, 32Gb, Focusrite 2i2, FL-studio 20, Studio One 4, Reason 10
User avatar
SMH
KVRist
 
148 posts since 22 Feb, 2017

Postby SMH; Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:59 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

ATN69 wrote:
SMH wrote:
ATN69 wrote:
SMH wrote:
ATN69 wrote:If I buy an airplane ticket I can, for a fee, transfer that airline ticket to someone else. I can sell it to someone else. I don't own the airplane but still I can sell the ticket. It's the right to have a seat on a certain flight.


I'm not sure that's the best example you could pick. http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/11/news/re ... index.html https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/11/overbooking/


I choose that analogy because you buy a service. Look at your ticket as a license. I am a frequent flyer so I know how shitty it can be just as these articles mention, but the point is you get money back or some kind of compensation at least. A software developer claiming NFR takes away any chance you have to get some money back or any kind of compensation. That's my point.


You don't get your money back if you get kicked off the flight for being belligerent or refusing to show ID. You sure you want your software developers to have those rights? :?


LOL! Did I say I want software developers to have those rights? :lol: ..and how does being belligerent or refusing to show id apply on software?


You picked airlines as an example not me. And those things don't usually apply to software- but they could. Be careful what you wish for.
User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6956 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:12 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

Dillinger wrote:This is where hardware is a better investment.

Not even close! Let's consider a few of my recent purchases as examples, as I tend to look for second-hand bargains. I got my Elektron Analog Keys on eBay for US$800. It's advertised at JRR Shop for $1349. He also spent money on expansions and on the Underbridge mod, so it's possible he spent $1500 on it, which means he lost $700 on the deal! That's more than I've spent on plugins in the last 10 years.

I bought my Waldorf Rocket last year for Au$200 last. They retail for Au$399 but you can get them easily enough for Au$325. So the guy I bought mine from lost Au$125, minimum, which is about what I paid for Vacuum Pro this week (and I paid over the odds).

From the other side, I bought a Korg Minilogue about 18 months ago and sold it on eBay after about 6 months. I was lucky they were still in short supply from retailers but I still lost about Au$180 on it. That $180 could buy a top-shelf VSTi or a cheap hardware stomp box.
Last edited by BONES on Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Surface Pro 2 (Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Seaboard Rise 25
woggle
KVRAF
 
1550 posts since 23 Nov, 2012

Postby woggle; Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:23 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

arguments to viablity of developers depending on NFR do not hold up against the evidence. There are small and large developers of some longevity who allow license transfer (under reasonable conditions) and also those who do not allow license transfer. Therefore allowing or disallowing license transfer in itself does not determines continued success / viability of development.
I am increasingly reluctant to buy products that I can't resell - depends on the price, but I cant see me buying anything that can't be resold, unless I have a lot of experience with that developer and trust their quality.
User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6956 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:35 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

Burillo wrote:
Dasheesh wrote:As I’ve had it explained to me. That software isn’t yours and you don’t own it.

which is another way of saying "just because". it's literally a developer power tripping.

Or perhaps the developer wants to sell the plugin at the lowest possible price while continuing to be able to buy food for his hungry children? How much extra would you be willing to pay for a resellable license? An extra 10%, 25%, maybe? Assuming that's what it might cost the dev over time. It's not about support, it's about lost sales. Airlines and hotel websites do that all the time - there is one price for a non-refundable reservation and a much higher price for a fully flexible reservation. You go into it knowing which you are choosing and what you get for your money. Some devs charge a fee, up to $50, to transfer a license. You do it if you think it's fair or you don't.
same can be said about buying used physical items. yet, somehow i don't see anything i buy at the store carrying a license agreement that says "not for resale".

Exactly, you know what you're buying and you make a decision. But again, if you could buy a physical item for a lower price on the proviso that you can never resell it, which item would you go for?
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Surface Pro 2 (Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Seaboard Rise 25
User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6956 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:49 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

sjm wrote:My answer to the OP is: because at least some people go along with it. I don't know if this is likely to change elsewhere, but EU law treats software exactly the same way as a book*, which means you are free to sell your licenses all you like. Other areas are less progressive in this regard.

What if that adds 20% to the price you have to pay? Is it "progressive" then? Because that could easily be the result here. A company will try to predict the effect resale will have on sales and set their price accordingly.
Either you are selling a product, or you are not selling a product; you can't have your cake and eat it, no matter how greedy you are.

As I said elsewhere, airlines and hotel websites do it all the time. It's just different tiers within their pricing structure - pay a set price for a non-refundable reservation or a premium price if you want more flexiblity.
"Because piracy" is a nice argument, but actually a strawman. The same set of rules have to apply to both buyer AND seller, and that means ALL the rules; you can't pick and choose the pieces of legislation you like most and ignore the rest.

But it's different here. When I sell my Korg Monologue, I physically hand it over to the person who buys it and I can never have access to it again. With software, there is a level of trust involved because I can sell software but not remove it from my own SSD and keep using; no-one will ever be any the wiser. To me it is little different to photocopying a book and then selling, except at least if you do that with a book you pay a big price in time spent at the photocopier. With software it's actually less work to act illegally.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Surface Pro 2 (Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Seaboard Rise 25
User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
 
6956 posts since 13 Jun, 2001, from Somewhere else, on principle

Postby BONES; Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:57 pm Re: NFR - but why?!

wagtunes wrote:That's the world I grew up in. That's what I expect with my music software.

Why? That's like saying "a can of Coca-Cola was 30c when I went to school and that's all I'm willing to pay for one today". Times change, the world moves on. You have to move with it.
If I buy it, it should be mine.

All you buy is a license and that is yours, so it's fine.
I shouldn't have to worry about a company going out of business and, if for some reason my PC dies and I have to get a new one, having an install fail because it can't phone home to the web site to validate a serial number. To me, that's bull shit.

When has that ever happened? SoundForge, for example, has changed hands several times in the 20 years or so I've been using it but my license remains valid, I can always go and download the last version I paid for and they are always helpful in solving any licensing issues I have.
Why I and everybody else put up with this crap is beyond me. But we do. One day, it is conceivable that every piece of music software that we own will no longer function.

The same is true of a $300,000 Ferrari but it doesn't stop anyone from buying them, or any other car. It's part of the deal.
My Might And Magic VI still works 20 years later and will continue to work whether or not 3DO went out of business (defunct in 2003) or not.
[/quote][/quote]
Really? What happens when you buy a computer without an optical drive? Will you be pissed off that you have to pay extra for an external drive? No, because you knew what you were in for when you bought the computer. It's the same here.
Last edited by BONES on Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Surface Pro 2 (Win10), Zoom U24, Orion 64 bit, Maschine Mikro, Elektron Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket, MicroMonsta, Seaboard Rise 25
User avatar
evilantal
KVRian
 
783 posts since 13 Mar, 2008, from Arnhem, Netherlands

Postby evilantal; Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:25 am Re: NFR - but why?!

Long story short.... EU legislation requires software developers to offer license transfers when they sell to EU customers.
Simply putting restrictive stuff in an EULA doesn't make it binding. Law overrules any EULA.

Whether developers choose to comply is another matter entirely...
Demo work: https://soundcloud.com/antaln
My post/prog rock band: http://www.sylvium.com
Music for media: http://www.myendlessy.com
chk071
KVRAF
 
16051 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:29 am Re: NFR - but why?!

evilantal wrote:Long story short.... EU legislation requires software developers to offer license transfers when they sell to EU customers.
Simply putting restrictive stuff in an EULA doesn't make it binding. Law overrules any EULA.

Whether developers choose to comply is another matter entirely...

The thing is, would you bring it to court, risk a lot of work, effort and money, or do you just comply to the EULA, and buy responsibly ("responsibly" meaning responsible to yourself).

You know, i know a lot of people who will always tell you "Go to court, go to court!" while they never do. Simply because it's not worth it, in 99,9 % of cases.
moshimoshi
KVRist
 
35 posts since 18 May, 2016

Postby moshimoshi; Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:39 am Re: NFR - but why?!

BONES wrote:Or perhaps the developer wants to sell the plugin at the lowest possible price while continuing to be able to buy food for his hungry children? How much extra would you be willing to pay for a resellable license? An extra 10%, 25%, maybe? Assuming that's what it might cost the dev over time. It's not about support, it's about lost sales. Airlines and hotel websites do that all the time - there is one price for a non-refundable reservation and a much higher price for a fully flexible reservation. You go into it knowing which you are choosing and what you get for your money. Some devs charge a fee, up to $50, to transfer a license. You do it if you think it's fair or you don't.


Great post. I do think support can be a factor - it surely costs real money to pay support guys and real time to answer support mails yourself if you're a solo operation. But lost sales is the big one I think. Overall I think devs are just trying to stay afloat so they can continue to do what they do, support their software over time, employ staff and not have to fire someone because there isn't enough money coming in. I personally try to buy direct from devs as far as possible for this reason (although I do admit I've bought 'used' software as well) and I have no issue with transfer fees. I think it's better that the developer gets enough money to keep going, rather than quitting the business and leaving users with orphaned software.
User avatar
Michael L
KVRAF
 
2288 posts since 25 Jan, 2014, from the End of the World as we Knowit

Postby Michael L; Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:05 am Re: NFR - but why?!

Why do people want so much to sell their software?
User avatar
martinjuenke
KVRAF
 
1554 posts since 28 Dec, 2015, from Germany

Postby martinjuenke; Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:20 am Re: NFR - but why?!

Michael L wrote:Why do people want so much to sell their software?

It‘s psychology:
You bought something, used it and okay, you squeezed out the creative impulse it gave to you. Then you addicted poor boy needs the next kick. The last rest of reasonableness says: first you sell before you buy something new. And you obey! And all this behavior keeps the wheel spinning...
PS: My wife says that she prefers when I swap plugins instead of women ... :hihi:
Music was my first love ...
atmospheric electronic music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com
User avatar
Michael L
KVRAF
 
2288 posts since 25 Jan, 2014, from the End of the World as we Knowit

Postby Michael L; Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:28 am Re: NFR - but why?!

martinjuenke wrote:It‘s psychology

So for some people plugins are drugs, but for others they are tools?
PreviousNext

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Return to Instruments