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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
26049 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:03 pm Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

justin3am wrote:
whyterabbyt wrote:
justin3am wrote:Just let people decide on their own, what they want to use.


I want to use your stuff. Please post it over.


Ask vurt, I don't think he's using the WTPA? sampler I sent him. lol
Seriously though, I'm working on something that you may get your hands on one day... If I can manage to get the power supply secured so it can survive an overseas voyage. :dog: :o


eh, wot? :hyper:

(though you've just reminded me, I still havent built my WTPA, ffs...)
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."
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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
 
26049 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:08 pm Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

marooned ufo wrote:
justin3am wrote:None of these points (made by marooned ufo or Gear Nostalgia) are going to convince anyone who has already made up their mind about what they want to use. What is the point of continuously making these arguments? To persuade n00bs that one way is better (or worse) than another? Seems silly to me. Every approach has it's pros and cons.

Just let people decide on their own, what they want to use.


1. This is a public forum where people discuss topics.
2. The OP asked a question, answers follow.
3. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
4. We don't need someone such as yourself governing what people can and cannot discuss and even worse how we're supposed to do it. As long as the rules are followed, like not taking it personal with attacks.
5. Why waste your time commenting on something that doesn't interest you? Or does it?
6. Maybe because it's making you feel less secure in your reasoning and decision when an opposing opinion makes a lot of sense.
7. You obviously feel threatened and this is your way of trying to convince everyone your thoughts are the only way to do things.
8. People get a little defensive when their investment is going down in value.
9. People don't like to hear the truth when it's negative to their line of thinking.
10. Relax, no one is forcing people to think a specific way.


big f**king 'whoosh' there...
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."
experimental.crow
KVRAF
 
5475 posts since 9 Mar, 2003, from The Druid Hills

Postby experimental.crow; Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:24 pm Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

whyterabbyt wrote:
marooned ufo wrote:
justin3am wrote:None of these points (made by marooned ufo or Gear Nostalgia) are going to convince anyone who has already made up their mind about what they want to use. What is the point of continuously making these arguments? To persuade n00bs that one way is better (or worse) than another? Seems silly to me. Every approach has it's pros and cons.

Just let people decide on their own, what they want to use.


1. This is a public forum where people discuss topics.
2. The OP asked a question, answers follow.
3. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
4. We don't need someone such as yourself governing what people can and cannot discuss and even worse how we're supposed to do it. As long as the rules are followed, like not taking it personal with attacks.
5. Why waste your time commenting on something that doesn't interest you? Or does it?
6. Maybe because it's making you feel less secure in your reasoning and decision when an opposing opinion makes a lot of sense.
7. You obviously feel threatened and this is your way of trying to convince everyone your thoughts are the only way to do things.
8. People get a little defensive when their investment is going down in value.
9. People don't like to hear the truth when it's negative to their line of thinking.
10. Relax, no one is forcing people to think a specific way.


big f**king 'whoosh' there...


ffs ...
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marooned ufo
KVRer
 
25 posts since 31 Jul, 2018

Postby marooned ufo; Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:15 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

thecontrolcentre wrote:
I haven't really noticed prices of vintage gear dropping. Not the good stuff anyway ...




Give this a browse and you'll notice a lot of top quality vintage synthesizers not selling even with large price drops. I think a lot of people have missed the window of opportunity to sell for a large profit on their vintage gear.

https://reverb.com/handpicked/price-drops?product_type=keyboards-and-synths
marooned ufo
KVRer
 
25 posts since 31 Jul, 2018

Postby marooned ufo; Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:20 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

marooned ufo wrote:
GearNostalgia wrote:1, It feels more real to work with real controllers and keys
2, You can sell your gear on later if you want to and in some cases you don't loose money on it. Much software can't be resold.
3, The hardware was made for playing its sounds so it seldom locks up or get weird.


1. A midi controller does exactly the same thing.

1a. Roughly 90% are bedroom producers that point and click with the mouse and midi editor anyway.

2. You can resell your plugins too, but why buy something you don't plan to keep in the first place? Now a days the value of analog gear is going down with the advent of modern emulations and clones.

3. Hardware has tons of issues, missing keys, broken knobs, going out of tune, burnt out circuit boards, power issues, degradation over time, components have a lifespan and cleaning and maintenance. All of which can be very expensive, the more vintage it is, the higher the price goes up for parts and service.

3a. Takes up a lot of space, electricity bill and where you keep it needs to be safe and secure from theft.



4. The portability also plays a big role in the amount of usage a plugin gets over hardware.

4a. Only needing a laptop to make music anywhere is very appealing and rewarding.

5. The ability to run multiple instances of the same instrument makes it inexpensive and convenient.

5a. Having multiple channels available for midi with plugins is another underestimated feature.
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jacqueslacouth
KVRian
 
824 posts since 17 Nov, 2004

Postby jacqueslacouth; Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:48 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

chk071 wrote:
pdxindy wrote:RePro has a certain character and you basically cannot make it sound bad.

Everything can be made sound bad. ;)


I can absolutely verify this...it is what I excel at. :clown:
chk071
KVRAF
 
16826 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:49 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

Wanted to add that to my comment as well. :lol:
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Hink
Rad Grandad
 
27139 posts since 5 Sep, 2003, from Downeast Maine
marooned ufo wrote: 5. The ability to run multiple instances of the same instrument makes it inexpensive and convenient.


yes but also many people using hardware wont be programming but recording live audio out of a synth and wouldn't have it any other way. Your point stands for itb but hardware is often about not having everything itb. :shrug:
got any good fish stories? Let minnow
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foosnark
KVRAF
 
4354 posts since 9 Jan, 2003, from Saint Louis MO

Postby foosnark; Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:33 pm Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

marooned ufo wrote:1. A midi controller does exactly the same thing.


One specialized MIDI controller for every instance of every softsynth you use, plus more for effects and for mixing, might be "close enough" to the same thing.

marooned ufo wrote:2. You can resell your plugins too, but why buy something you don't plan to keep in the first place? Now a days the value of analog gear is going down with the advent of modern emulations and clones.


I've used VST plugins for about 15 years, desktop synths for 3 and Eurorack for 2. I can say with certainty that hardware is more likely to resell and tends to retain its value pretty decently. There are no prohibitive license transfer fees, no NFRs, and no 50% off holiday sales on hardware that mean you have to price your resales lower.

I've had 100 Eurorack modules enter my studio and 50 leave again in trades and sales. It's given me the opportunity to try out a whole lot of gear and determine what works best for me and together as a system. If I buy a module used, I can usually resell it at the same price or close enough that it would be considered a fantstically cheap "rental" fee.

I've successfully sold very few plugins, and eaten the loss on a lot more.

marooned ufo wrote:3. Hardware has tons of issues, missing keys, broken knobs, going out of tune, burnt out circuit boards, power issues, degradation over time, components have a lifespan and cleaning and maintenance. All of which can be very expensive, the more vintage it is, the higher the price goes up for parts and service.


Missing keys: Sure, on the Korg Nanokey 1 I had, which was garbage. Not on anything else. WTF are you doing to your synths? :hihi:
Broken knobs: Never seen it.
Going out of tune: Digital hardware and modern analog don't have a serious problem here.
Burnt out circuit boards: Never seen it. Try turning off your synths before pouring beer into them :hihi:
Degradation over time: By the time the hardware I own "degrades", the software I own will have long been completely unusable and/or replaced by better software.
Cleaning and maintenance: It takes about 20 seconds to dust my synth gear every once in a while.

marooned ufo wrote:3a. Takes up a lot of space, electricity bill and where you keep it needs to be safe and secure from theft.


It does take up space -- kind of difficult to have a hands-on interface without that. MIDI controllers also take space.

The electricity bill for my synths is, I estimate, about 1/10 of what my computer uses and that's under load -- and I turn my synths off when not using them; I leave my computer on.

My synths are as secure as my computer is, given they're in the same room.

marooned ufo wrote:4a. Only needing a laptop to make music anywhere is very appealing and rewarding.


There are people who find computers intrinsically unappealing for music. I'm not one of them, but I do kind of dislike laptops for their ergonomics.

There are also a wide variety of small, portable synths, including modular cases; there's a whole sub-community of people who take modular stuff on the road, to the beach, on mountain hikes etc.

marooned ufo wrote:5. The ability to run multiple instances of the same instrument makes it inexpensive and convenient.


Very true! Part of why I like VST effects along with my hardware synths and some hardware effects. Although you'll also find people who prefer to work within limits.

I tend to only use 3-5 monophonic voices in most of my music, but I like being able to throw my favorite compressor, EQ, delay etc. onto all of them at once if I choose to.
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thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
 
22907 posts since 27 Jul, 2005, from the wilds of wanny

Postby thecontrolcentre; Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:45 pm Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

marooned ufo wrote:
thecontrolcentre wrote:
I haven't really noticed prices of vintage gear dropping. Not the good stuff anyway ...




Give this a browse and you'll notice a lot of top quality vintage synthesizers not selling even with large price drops. I think a lot of people have missed the window of opportunity to sell for a large profit on their vintage gear.

https://reverb.com/handpicked/price-drops?product_type=keyboards-and-synths


Not seeing anything desirable there for cheap. Maybe my idea of quality vintage equipment differs from yours.
recursive one
KVRAF
 
3590 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Postby recursive one; Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:46 pm Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

pdxindy wrote:Here... check out the audio demos of the latest Zebra soundset by u-he
https://u-he.com/products/soundsets/zeb ... #zebratron

I think that sounds great and in general that software sounds great.

I sort of liked the last sound in the plucks demo and some of the drums (One sound is right from Infected Mushroom's Bust a Move 8) )

But in general these demos are exactly what I was talking about. Crazy sound-design, there probably was more synth knowledge put into making each of the sounds than I will have in my whole life. But the base sound of the synth is what I personally would describe as thin and weak.
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...
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foosnark
KVRAF
 
4354 posts since 9 Jan, 2003, from Saint Louis MO

Postby foosnark; Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:01 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

It occurred to me that I should mention what I think are the real disadvantages of hardware... yes there are some.

1. Expense. Not all software is cheap, not all hardware is expensive, and few people bother with (or can afford or justify) those $16,000 vintage synths; resale value and robust used markets help somewhat. But still hardware does cost more overall than software.

2. Cables. Cables can be a pain. You have to store them somewhere, they get tangled and kinked and knotted and in the way, and they are the part most likely to go wrong. In my very limited, long ago gigging experience, cables are most likely to go wrong at a gig. (Jacks can also suffer from some stress and wear.)

3. Physical arrangement. Yes, they have to take up space to be tactile. They have to be well placed and not get in each others' way and that can present challenges and limitations. You need shelves, stands, racks etc. You also need adequate and well-placed power outlets, room for wall warts etc. A lot of people find if they don't have a semi-permanent and convenient setup, they don't really bother to haul everything out and plug it in and get started.

4. Inputs/mixing. With virtual synths and effects this infrastructure is just part of the host. With hardware, it's another thing to deal with.

5. Ground issues, noise, level mismatches etc. I happen to like some level of "natural" noise in my own work and intentionally bring it out at times, but it's definitely not always welcome. Offsets in the 0V reference ("ground") between different pieces of gear can cause chaos and are never desirable. And often I find myself having to deal with devices that have less input headroom than I'd like. Some things sound fantastic when overdriven, others clip and sound like ass. Level issues are not totally unknown in DAWs, but having different kinds of equipment invites more of them.

Aside from #1 for some people, none of these is really a deal-breaker, and most of it isn't stuff you have to deal with on a regular basis -- no more than the anti-computer crowd's complaints about OS updates or dead hard drives or unstable software.

It really comes down to personal preference; what are you willing to deal with for what results, and what are you willing or unwilling to compromise about?
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IncarnateX
KVRAF
 
3120 posts since 25 Jan, 2009, from Forgotten Realms

Postby IncarnateX; Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:16 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

Hardware is just cool to fiddle with, software is less so, but faster if you want a result...imo, of course. I certainly hope I wouldn’t be to picky about software if I was a pro producer who needs the results faster than the joy of the process. But I am a hobbyist and thus blessed with the time to try all synths on single voice for hours before going further. Wonder if this really holds on a larger scale: Are most pro producers really DAW engineers now a day and have hardware for cosmetic reasons or do they tend toward more use of hardware than software? Not that I would expect any statistics on that. Too boring and insignificant question to be scientific but does anyone here have an idea?
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quantum7
KVRian
 
872 posts since 30 Dec, 2006, from the hills above beautiful Boise, Idaho

Postby quantum7; Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:01 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

Re: What's the point of hardware synths?

"Well, why go to a fine restaurant when you could just stick something in the microwave... Why go to the park and fly a kite when you could just pop a pill?"

-Cosmo Kramer
"It is better to compose than decompose."

Sean Christopher Dockery
www.SeanDockery.com www.SeanChristopher.net
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foosnark
KVRAF
 
4354 posts since 9 Jan, 2003, from Saint Louis MO

Postby foosnark; Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:25 am Re: What's the point of hardware synths?(Drunken rant,ha)

IncarnateX wrote:Are most pro producers really DAW engineers now a day and have hardware for cosmetic reasons or do they tend toward more use of hardware than software? Not that I would expect any statistics on that. Too boring and insignificant question to be scientific but does anyone here have an idea?


"Pro producer" can be a loaded term and imply specific genres.... but there are definitely pro musicians who use hardware primarily, those who mostly stick to Ableton or whatever, and plenty who do both.

One of my current favorites, Belief Defect, uses Maschine, Reaktor ensembles and Eurorack synths in combination, both in the studio and live. Some of my other favorites are 100% Eurorack and pedals, or Buchla and and Euro and OP-1, or modified tape machines and weird modern boutique synths...

I really don't find hardware more time-consuming to use than software. If you're working with a synth regularly it becomes second nature. Honestly, I think hardware, and modular in particular can encourage a faster, less tweaky and fussy method of working. All the hands-on experience and intuition, and a different set of limitations from software, equates to speed.

There's a learning curve to it though; it takes hours of getting to know the stuff before it makes that much sense. You also have to cultivate an attitude of decisiveness instead of perfectionism, but musicians on deadlines tend to already have that, I expect.
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