Anyone know for sure?
I think channel 3 is common, but Roland seem to pick channel 2.
Is there a prefered default channel?
Is there a standard midi channel for Organ Bass Pedal boards?
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- KVRAF
- 8826 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
Not in the Midi specs and not that I know. There is only channel 10 for drums/percussion... Arrangements are too diverse and I would just count the keyboards on the organ if it has two than channel 3 makes sense for the pedal, if its one the pedal is the second... Anything other than 1 has to be set in the sound source anyway...
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- KVRian
- 1166 posts since 11 Jan, 2006 from Pittsburgh
Probably not. I assume you're talking about electronic & electro-mechanical organs, which typically have two manuals (frequently 1 on combo organs), but many pipe organs have as many as five manuals; it would be difficult to assign the same channel to pedals with a varying number of manuals and keep all the channels in numerical sequence, unless the pedals were always set to channel one.
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- KVRAF
- 6419 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
If Hammond I think midi channel 3 is the one.
But on some digital Hammonds you can set the two midi inputs to act in two different ways - that one input is lower manual and the other pedalboard disregarding the channel on what is coming - or simply go by set parameters in setup in organ for a specific midi channel on each.
But is there anything sending midi that is not selectable channel?
But on some digital Hammonds you can set the two midi inputs to act in two different ways - that one input is lower manual and the other pedalboard disregarding the channel on what is coming - or simply go by set parameters in setup in organ for a specific midi channel on each.
But is there anything sending midi that is not selectable channel?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 433 posts since 29 Jun, 2008 from Mid Wales, UK.
"But is there anything sending midi that is not selectable channel?"
Sometimes there is
Ok, I was looking at a DIY project someone had posted elsewhere to midify old home organ bass pedals with an Arduino.
Someone else who built it had no joy and wondered if it was a midi channel problem and their Hammond SK expected channel3.
The answer was in the Arduino code, it was setting channel1 in the note_on and note_off commands with no mention on how to change it.
That made me look at my Roland Vk8-m manual which said it shipped with channel 2 for the pedals, controller and upper on ch1 and lower on ch3.
It's been a long time since I used any General midi stuff, but I seem to remember that often the bass instrument was on channel3. I know that's not in any spec I can find, just how I remember it.
As it happens, since bass pedals might also be used to tap out drums or trigger samples, yes, it should be settable for any channel, or at least 1 to 10.
Sometimes there is
Ok, I was looking at a DIY project someone had posted elsewhere to midify old home organ bass pedals with an Arduino.
Someone else who built it had no joy and wondered if it was a midi channel problem and their Hammond SK expected channel3.
The answer was in the Arduino code, it was setting channel1 in the note_on and note_off commands with no mention on how to change it.
That made me look at my Roland Vk8-m manual which said it shipped with channel 2 for the pedals, controller and upper on ch1 and lower on ch3.
It's been a long time since I used any General midi stuff, but I seem to remember that often the bass instrument was on channel3. I know that's not in any spec I can find, just how I remember it.
As it happens, since bass pedals might also be used to tap out drums or trigger samples, yes, it should be settable for any channel, or at least 1 to 10.
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- KVRAF
- 6419 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
I see what you mean, thanks for explanation.
Maybe Hammond SK series they cheaped out and not having the two midi inputs and settings my XK3C have.
I think there might be midi boxes that can swap channels, not sure though.
Receiving equipment usually have a bundance of settings with global channel for this, and other settings each presets for that etc.
Prices are silly high on Hammond pedals, as well as second manual stuff - so get why DIY exist.
Maybe Hammond SK series they cheaped out and not having the two midi inputs and settings my XK3C have.
I think there might be midi boxes that can swap channels, not sure though.
Receiving equipment usually have a bundance of settings with global channel for this, and other settings each presets for that etc.
Prices are silly high on Hammond pedals, as well as second manual stuff - so get why DIY exist.
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- KVRAF
- 3080 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN
Yeah everything organ seems kinda on the spensive side. I don't know what country these are manufactured in, but the USA price of the pedals, and apparent build-quality looks pretty good, for not having to sniff solder fumes--
https://drawbarcity.ecwid.com/JG3-Tech- ... -c22913678
And getting a little farther off-topic, something I keep having to resist thinking about buying-- In the grand scheme of things not terribly expensive but a little more than an impulse buy-- That German company KeyboardPartner makes the HX3 programmable gate array B3 emulations-- I've not played one or touched one, but too much time listening to youtube videos, seems like the best hammond sound anywhere-- Actually seems better than most B3's according to the youtube audio, and the demos come from various people who don't seem to go to extraordinary effort to "sweeten" the recordings--
http://shop.keyboardpartner.de/epages/1 ... ts/hx3-dbe
http://shop.keyboardpartner.de/epages/1 ... exp-bundle
They also sell lots of DIY boards to retrofit into organs or build yer own from new raw keybeds and lumber. I still like working with wood but just some years ago got weary of sniffing solder fumes. The price differential isn't big enough. I'd rather just buy something already assembled and ready to play.
But if someone had a big old console organ they just had their heart set on modernizing into something "better than a B3" then I suppose the DIY parts would make sense.
I kicked bass pedals in cheezy hotel lounge duos off'n'on thru the 1970's and early 1980's in lean times when no better gig was available. I don't have pictures of the pedals. Was po as a church mouse so built a 16 pedal board that still had a few hundred bucks of parts in it. Used new pratt & read pedal components, plywood base, got a local tin-bender to make the upper electronic chassis out of 16 guage steel.
I wanted it "more than 13 pedals" and wanted a range equivalent to four string electric bass, so made it 16 note, low E up to G an octave higher, the range of the open strings of four string bass. It wasn't as "deep" front to back as taurus pedals, so I could fit it more easily under keyboards. Sometimes it was hard to get a taurus pedals fitted in down in the rats nest under a keyboard stack.
That was before microcontrollers were common or cheap, and I didn't know how to program them anyway at the time, so it was all CMOS hardwire digital mostly. 16 pedals allowed pedal scan with just four-bit counter and latch. I built a little "digital" hardwire synth that used a top-octave generator, going thru CMOS switching network selected by the pedals, into three tone sources-- A walking-ring 16' sine generator, a walking-ring 8' sine generator, and a 16' divide-down 25% duty cycle pulse wave. Each of the "oscillators" had its own fast attack adjustable release analog envelope driving its own CA3280 VCA. I was mainly interested in it sounding "kinda like electric bass" so the 16' sine knob had a long decay, the 8' sine knob was adjusted for a shorter decay, and the 25% pulse wave was adjusted for a quick "splat" to try to emulate bass guitar pick or finger pluck note-on transient.
It also had CV, Gate and Trig outputs. When I first built the pedals it didn't have the little homebrew CMOS digital bass synth, and I first used the pedals to drive a mono synth with a bass patch set up on it. Until I got around to designing and building the sound generator.
I was horrible kicking pedal bass. Only did it to have a fatter sound and hopefully more reliably pay the rent in the lean times when cheezy lounge duos were all I could find as an alternative to getting a real job. But I more enjoy playing left-hand bass, but left-hand bass and only one hand left over for chords and melody spreads it too thin for a solo or duo type gig.
But some folks can kick pedals in the proper fashion. I never quite qualified.
https://drawbarcity.ecwid.com/JG3-Tech- ... -c22913678
And getting a little farther off-topic, something I keep having to resist thinking about buying-- In the grand scheme of things not terribly expensive but a little more than an impulse buy-- That German company KeyboardPartner makes the HX3 programmable gate array B3 emulations-- I've not played one or touched one, but too much time listening to youtube videos, seems like the best hammond sound anywhere-- Actually seems better than most B3's according to the youtube audio, and the demos come from various people who don't seem to go to extraordinary effort to "sweeten" the recordings--
http://shop.keyboardpartner.de/epages/1 ... ts/hx3-dbe
http://shop.keyboardpartner.de/epages/1 ... exp-bundle
They also sell lots of DIY boards to retrofit into organs or build yer own from new raw keybeds and lumber. I still like working with wood but just some years ago got weary of sniffing solder fumes. The price differential isn't big enough. I'd rather just buy something already assembled and ready to play.
But if someone had a big old console organ they just had their heart set on modernizing into something "better than a B3" then I suppose the DIY parts would make sense.
I kicked bass pedals in cheezy hotel lounge duos off'n'on thru the 1970's and early 1980's in lean times when no better gig was available. I don't have pictures of the pedals. Was po as a church mouse so built a 16 pedal board that still had a few hundred bucks of parts in it. Used new pratt & read pedal components, plywood base, got a local tin-bender to make the upper electronic chassis out of 16 guage steel.
I wanted it "more than 13 pedals" and wanted a range equivalent to four string electric bass, so made it 16 note, low E up to G an octave higher, the range of the open strings of four string bass. It wasn't as "deep" front to back as taurus pedals, so I could fit it more easily under keyboards. Sometimes it was hard to get a taurus pedals fitted in down in the rats nest under a keyboard stack.
That was before microcontrollers were common or cheap, and I didn't know how to program them anyway at the time, so it was all CMOS hardwire digital mostly. 16 pedals allowed pedal scan with just four-bit counter and latch. I built a little "digital" hardwire synth that used a top-octave generator, going thru CMOS switching network selected by the pedals, into three tone sources-- A walking-ring 16' sine generator, a walking-ring 8' sine generator, and a 16' divide-down 25% duty cycle pulse wave. Each of the "oscillators" had its own fast attack adjustable release analog envelope driving its own CA3280 VCA. I was mainly interested in it sounding "kinda like electric bass" so the 16' sine knob had a long decay, the 8' sine knob was adjusted for a shorter decay, and the 25% pulse wave was adjusted for a quick "splat" to try to emulate bass guitar pick or finger pluck note-on transient.
It also had CV, Gate and Trig outputs. When I first built the pedals it didn't have the little homebrew CMOS digital bass synth, and I first used the pedals to drive a mono synth with a bass patch set up on it. Until I got around to designing and building the sound generator.
I was horrible kicking pedal bass. Only did it to have a fatter sound and hopefully more reliably pay the rent in the lean times when cheezy lounge duos were all I could find as an alternative to getting a real job. But I more enjoy playing left-hand bass, but left-hand bass and only one hand left over for chords and melody spreads it too thin for a solo or duo type gig.
But some folks can kick pedals in the proper fashion. I never quite qualified.
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- KVRAF
- 6419 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
The digital Hammond's have such good functionality activating mono/poly pedals to lower manual - so foot pedal is less important, as I see it. If mono - lowest note make it to bass pedals, or poly full chords which probably is less good idea and too fat.
So that fat sound with bass pedals is easily achieved anyway - if some unison with left hand is ok.
But those doing a full independent walking bas with feet are impressive.
So that fat sound with bass pedals is easily achieved anyway - if some unison with left hand is ok.
But those doing a full independent walking bas with feet are impressive.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 433 posts since 29 Jun, 2008 from Mid Wales, UK.
Cost of the things is high. Especially when they don't actually make a sound. You'd think they could have a few voices built in for what they cost.
I think playing bass with the feet is a skill best learned young. I also think it helps to have short legs so the toes can dangle just above the keys when seated.
In Rock, not many keyboard players use them. Hugh Banton of VdGG is the only one I know, but he was classical organ trained.
In Genesis, it seemed that every band member except the keyboard player used bass pedal synth.
But for the rest of us, using a spare foot to hold a bass drone or even an arpeggiator is quite useful.
I think playing bass with the feet is a skill best learned young. I also think it helps to have short legs so the toes can dangle just above the keys when seated.
In Rock, not many keyboard players use them. Hugh Banton of VdGG is the only one I know, but he was classical organ trained.
In Genesis, it seemed that every band member except the keyboard player used bass pedal synth.
But for the rest of us, using a spare foot to hold a bass drone or even an arpeggiator is quite useful.
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- KVRAF
- 3080 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN
I've occasionally played "full size" pedals as in that link I posted, but never owned a set of full-size pedals. The times in the past I had broke-down old full-size hammonds, they came without pedals and I wouldn't have toted the big pedals to gigs anyway.
The classical and theater organists do great with pedals, and it wasn't uncommon for jazz groups to rely on foot bass.
Perhaps the full-size pedals are easier or more enjoyable to play than the little spinet-sized pedals. The big pedals just take up so much space under a multi-keyboard stack, rather than a dedicated organist usage.
My "hangup" when making my pedals was that most bass amps and PA speakers of that time (and also of the present) were designed at best to be efficient down to 40 or 50 Hz. So I figured low E or F was the "most efficient" lowest note for a short stack of pedals, where you need some room left over on the right side of the floor for sustain pedals and expression pedals and footswitches.
I've seen some "short pedal" products that start at F, but IMO C was just way too low for live use with practical bass amps or PA bins.
If somebody had a set of 13-pedal spinet pedals or whatever pulled out of a spinet organ, and that was considered enough pedals, then maybe he could disassemble the parts and "move them around" to get E-to-E or F-to-F or whatever.
The classical and theater organists do great with pedals, and it wasn't uncommon for jazz groups to rely on foot bass.
Perhaps the full-size pedals are easier or more enjoyable to play than the little spinet-sized pedals. The big pedals just take up so much space under a multi-keyboard stack, rather than a dedicated organist usage.
My "hangup" when making my pedals was that most bass amps and PA speakers of that time (and also of the present) were designed at best to be efficient down to 40 or 50 Hz. So I figured low E or F was the "most efficient" lowest note for a short stack of pedals, where you need some room left over on the right side of the floor for sustain pedals and expression pedals and footswitches.
I've seen some "short pedal" products that start at F, but IMO C was just way too low for live use with practical bass amps or PA bins.
If somebody had a set of 13-pedal spinet pedals or whatever pulled out of a spinet organ, and that was considered enough pedals, then maybe he could disassemble the parts and "move them around" to get E-to-E or F-to-F or whatever.
