Need Help With Trance Project (Track 3 Posted And Mastered)

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13606 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:50 am

Okay, before I start working in fixing the arrangement (the mix will come after) is this essentially what a drop is and how to make it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCN0Z9WwgsE

So there needs to be some rise before it that goes up in pitch and maybe in volume as well and then stops briefly before the kick, bass and other stuff comes in.

Is that basically it?

Are there other kinds of things that would classify as drops or is this the only true acceptable way?

I just want to make sure I get this part right.

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
10066 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:57 am

wagtunes wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:50 am
Okay, before I start working in fixing the arrangement (the mix will come after) is this essentially what a drop is and how to make it?

So there needs to be some rise before it that goes up in pitch and maybe in volume as well and then stops briefly before the kick, bass and other stuff comes in.

Is that basically it?

Are there other kinds of things that would classify as drops or is this the only true acceptable way?

I just want to make sure I get this part right.
Yes, that's the classic one that the vast majority of tracks still adopt.

Essentially a white noise band pass sweep with rolling hats, snares or kick, followed by a 1/16 or 1/8 gap before dropping back into the arrangement. This has the effect of making everything sound huge because the compressor has time to recover beforehand.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
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recursive one
KVRAF
3694 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:03 am

I think drop is essentially another name for climax. All parts come together and are supposed to have maximal impact. Before a drop you want to have some tension, it can be done in multiple ways. Yes, pitch risers, noise swooshes, drum rolls and things like that

Lisnen to this track very closely from 3:04 to 4:50. 4:50 is where the drop is

https://soundcloud.com/headroomusic/deadroom

Listen what happens before, how they add and remove things to build the tension

Or an entriely different kind of trance, super massive drop (and a self-explanatory track titile)

The drop is at 3:42, and they are preparing you from the very beginning by giving some "hints" here and there of what will happen in the climax

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM5Fc0ehPso
Last edited by recursive one on Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wagtunes
KVRAF
13606 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:09 am

Thanks Recursive. Last question for now. This might have something to do with the reverb problem. Some patches have built in reverb into them. I should disable all built in reverb in a patch and just use the reverb sends, correct?

recursive one
KVRAF
3694 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:12 am

wagtunes wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:09 am
Some patches have built in reverb into them. I should disable all built in reverb in a patch and just use the reverb sends, correct?
Yes, in 99% cases.
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wagtunes
KVRAF
13606 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:16 am

recursive one wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:12 am
wagtunes wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:09 am
Some patches have built in reverb into them. I should disable all built in reverb in a patch and just use the reverb sends, correct?
Yes, in 99% cases.
Okay, here's where we are and what I did.

1. I went to each track and readjusted the EQ

2. I removed all internal reverbs from patches where I could. Some literally made no sound without them but those were only the ones towards the finale so it didn't interfere with the main song.

3. I reduced all the reverb sends to about -20 db just to start. If I reduced too much, let me know and I'll start bumping things up a bit. I've been told I use too much reverb and that I should bump it up until I'm just about able to hear it. For the leads however, I wanted a little more because they really were too dry so they're around -10 db for some.

4. I remixed and took a screen capture of the new SPAN. It's much improved. That peak around 400 to 600 is not the instrumentation but the vocals. If you think they're too loud, I can lower them. But I wanted the lyrics to stand out.

5. I also fixed the panning problem. Things are more towards the center but not dead center. About 10 to 15% like you said.

Here is the new SPAN.

Image

All in all I think the mix sounds much cleaner. It doesn't sound as big as before but maybe it doesn't need to. I kind of miss that big epic sound with all the reverb but if you think this sounds better, I'll go with it.

Anyway, here it is. It is by no means done but I need to know if I'm going in the right direction. Not enough reverb? Can't possibly be too much because I can barely hear it. What still needs to be fixed BEFORE I do the drops and then master this thing?

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim ... e-home-wip

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13606 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:36 am

Just so you know, as of right now, I have no compressor on the mix buss. So I still have to do that. I think that will tighten things up a bit more as well.

recursive one
KVRAF
3694 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:45 am

Yes, it sounds way cleaner now. I'd say the mix is definitely improved. Low end is also tighter now.

Getting that super-huge epic trance reverb right is not easy at all, I can't say I'm able to do this properly myself. I mostly make psytrance where the reverbs are typically much smaller and cleaner.

I'd do something to that rolling bassline which startsat 0:30. It sounds messy, I'd start with tweaking the amp and filter envelopes to make it tighter, also maybe compress the sound a bit. Or remove this part at all, it appears only for a short time and doesn't make much sense imo.
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wagtunes
KVRAF
13606 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:58 am

recursive one wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:45 am
Yes, it sounds way cleaner now. I'd say the mix is definitely improved. Low end is also tighter now.

Getting that super-huge epic trance reverb right is not easy at all, I can't say I'm able to do this properly myself. I mostly make psytrance where the reverbs are typically much smaller and cleaner.

I'd do something to that rolling bassline which startsat 0:30. It sounds messy, I'd start with tweaking the amp and filter envelopes to make it tighter, also maybe compress the sound a bit. Or remove this part at all, it appears only for a short time and doesn't make much sense imo.
I already went into the bass patches and tightened up the envelopes as much as possible. They can't get any tighter. I did just throw the compressor on the mix buss, especially at the low end (MB compressor) so hopefully on the next run through it will sound tighter. I really don't want to remove it because I like it for that intro.

As for the reverb, is there a tutorial that shows how to get that epic Trance reverb? It can't some kind of voodoo. There has to be a way to do it. But if I have to settle for what I have, so be it.

I can work on the drops now that the mix is cleaner.

I'm hoping to have something later this afternoon.

Thanks again for everything.

recursive one
KVRAF
3694 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:06 am

wagtunes wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:58 am
As for the reverb, is there a tutorial that shows how to get that epic Trance reverb? It can't some kind of voodoo. There has to be a way to do it.
It's not any voodoo, all the basic techniques have been already discussed here (sidechaining, bright hall with long tail, hi/lowpassing). Now it's mostly the matter of trial and error.

When I say that I can't do properly this myself I don't mean I don't know how to do this. I don't have enough practice since I typically don't use such reverbs in my own music.

This is the closest I've ever got (the breakdown at 2:29 and the leads at 3:39). Again, and old track, not that it's an example of good mixing

https://soundcloud.com/recursion-loop/r ... pareidolia
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wagtunes
KVRAF
13606 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:24 am

recursive one wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:06 am
wagtunes wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:58 am
As for the reverb, is there a tutorial that shows how to get that epic Trance reverb? It can't some kind of voodoo. There has to be a way to do it.
It's not any voodoo, all the basic techniques have been already discussed here (sidechaining, bright hall with long tail, hi/lowpassing). Now it's mostly the matter of trial and error.

When I say that I can't do properly this myself I don't mean I don't know how to do this. I don't have enough practice since I typically don't use such reverbs in my own music.

This is the closest I've ever got (the breakdown at 2:29 and the leads at 3:39). Again, and old track, not that it's an example of good mixing

https://soundcloud.com/recursion-loop/r ... pareidolia
Okay, I get it. To me, that sounds good. Does it sound good to you? How do you know when that epic reverb sounds good? Or is this really just a taste thing?

Anyway, I killed the rolling bass. What I won't do to please people.

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Delta Sign
KVRist
496 posts since 22 Jun, 2018

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:27 am

Do you have Valhalla VintageVerb?

For those long, bright and modern reverbs, I usually use this preset I made ages ago as a starting point:

Code: Select all

<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.7.1" presetName="Modern Hall" Mix="0.5" PreDelay="0" Decay="0.45075938105583191" Size="1" Attack="0.69999998807907104" BassMult="0.62303876876831055" BassXover="0.76392877101898193" HighShelf="0.875" HighFreq="0.59053885936737061" EarlyDiffusion="1" LateDiffusion="1" ModRate="0.29292932152748108" ModDepth="0.30000001192092896" HighCut="0.74590957164764404" LowCut="0.10400000214576721" ColorMode="1" ReverbMode="0.3333333432674408"/>
(Just copy the text and use the "paste from clipboard" function in VVV, if you have it).

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13606 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:32 am

Delta Sign wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:27 am
Do you have Valhalla VintageVerb?

For those long, bright and modern reverbs, I usually use this preset I made ages ago as a starting point:

Code: Select all

<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.7.1" presetName="Modern Hall" Mix="0.5" PreDelay="0" Decay="0.45075938105583191" Size="1" Attack="0.69999998807907104" BassMult="0.62303876876831055" BassXover="0.76392877101898193" HighShelf="0.875" HighFreq="0.59053885936737061" EarlyDiffusion="1" LateDiffusion="1" ModRate="0.29292932152748108" ModDepth="0.30000001192092896" HighCut="0.74590957164764404" LowCut="0.10400000214576721" ColorMode="1" ReverbMode="0.3333333432674408"/>
(Just copy the text and use the "paste from clipboard" function in VVV, if you have it).
I have it but do not see a paste from clipboard function.

recursive one
KVRAF
3694 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:34 am

wagtunes wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:24 am
To me, that sounds good.
You mean that lead in my track? If I remember it right after 2 years, I used just this principle - a reverb with long tail sidechained to the leads. It was Valhalla VVerb (I don't have any other reverb) and i'm pretty certain it was bright hall with like 6-8 seconds tail. Two layers in the lead (Spire and Sylenth or Spire and Dune2, don't remember now) and both layers were heavily compressed together with the reverb send. I think it was a dedicated reverb send, not the global one, but it had similar settings so they could blend without causing much mud.

This is what I remember off the top of my head
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Delta Sign
KVRist
496 posts since 22 Jun, 2018

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:53 am

wagtunes wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:32 am
Delta Sign wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:27 am
Do you have Valhalla VintageVerb?

For those long, bright and modern reverbs, I usually use this preset I made ages ago as a starting point:

Code: Select all

<ValhallaVintageVerb pluginVersion="1.7.1" presetName="Modern Hall" Mix="0.5" PreDelay="0" Decay="0.45075938105583191" Size="1" Attack="0.69999998807907104" BassMult="0.62303876876831055" BassXover="0.76392877101898193" HighShelf="0.875" HighFreq="0.59053885936737061" EarlyDiffusion="1" LateDiffusion="1" ModRate="0.29292932152748108" ModDepth="0.30000001192092896" HighCut="0.74590957164764404" LowCut="0.10400000214576721" ColorMode="1" ReverbMode="0.3333333432674408"/>
(Just copy the text and use the "paste from clipboard" function in VVV, if you have it).
I have it but do not see a paste from clipboard function.
It's in the preset menu.

And yes, the Bright Hall algorithm is what you want for this kinda thing.

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