Need Help With Trance Project (CD Completed)

How to do this, that and the other. Share, learn, teach. How did X do that? How can I sound like Y?
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wagtunes
KVRAF
13612 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:11 pm

recursive one wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:05 pm
wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:57 am
would it only end up sounding like every other Trance track that's out there,

Doesn't make any sense to just bake a cake that's technically correct but nobody likes because it's bland as hell.
Well, many people do just this. Make "technically correct" trance tracks. On the one hand, it pushes the whole scene into the direction of very cliched, predictable and boring stuff. On the other hand, these people who don't have anything to add on their own and just repeat the tried and tested cliches, they are polishing the production side to perfection and then someone takes this perfect production, adds their own touch and takes the whole thing to the next level.

I listened to some of your tracks from your Music Cafe thread, your melodies and the overall aesthetics are very remote from what I actually enjoy. But you do have songwriting skills, there is no doubt in that. This sounds very trivial but it only worth it if you put enough effort into your production but at the same time you should actually like what you are doing. If you don't actually like trance, there is no point in making a "technically correct" trance track just to show someone that you can do it. if you don't like the musical side of trance but enjoy the production - the synths, the groove etc, you can take what you have learned in this thread and apply this to your own tracks in your own style. In this case I think you shouldn't give a flying f*ck if someone says "it's not trance".
Yeah, you're right. I admit it that you're right. But see, you don't know me. It's one of my biggest faults. When somebody tells me that I can't do something I go out of my way to prove them wrong, even if I hate doing it.

Now, I don't know if I'm going to hate doing a technically accurate Trance track. There IS something about the production side that DOES fascinate me. While it's true that a lot of what I loved about the track I did was the fact that it wa so different, there is no denying that I got a real thrill out of working on my production skills. I listen to this track and say to myself, "Did I really do that?" I still can't believe it. And yeah, it took 2 weeks to do. It was hard. I had to think about every little thing. And I enjoyed that. I wasn't bored.

I'm going to give one technically correct Trance tune a shot. I may find it's more fun than I imagined it would be and maybe it even turns out to be decent musically. I'm never going to know if I don't try.

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Distorted Horizon
KVRian
1308 posts since 17 Jan, 2017

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:42 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:39 am
The trick is to make it obvious without being predictable and boring. You want to know it's coming but you want some mystery too. Otherwise we can just program a computer to make this stuff.

IOW, making Trance that is interesting to listen to is NOT easy. I am absolutely learning that.
Wanna challenge? Maybe a nice 8 minute minimal trance piece. Kick, snare, hat, minimal bass and maybe a perc sound and make it interesting :hihi:

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13612 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:48 pm

Distorted Horizon wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:42 pm
wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:39 am
The trick is to make it obvious without being predictable and boring. You want to know it's coming but you want some mystery too. Otherwise we can just program a computer to make this stuff.

IOW, making Trance that is interesting to listen to is NOT easy. I am absolutely learning that.
Wanna challenge? Maybe a nice 8 minute minimal trance piece. Kick, snare, hat, minimal bass and maybe a perc sound and make it interesting :hihi:
Hey man, training wheels before I try to fly a 767.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13612 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:50 pm

Okay, getting back to some production basics.

The kick and bass are the foundation of your Trance track.

Let's start with the kick.

For the song I did, I took 3 kick samples, EQ'd and layered them to play together. One for the bottom, one for the mid and one for the top or I guess would be the click.

I watched this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gJ7x9wiCrc&t=402s

While you still have to do the actual work yourself, Kick 2 seems to at least organize this all together, plus some added things like creating a sub kick from a sin wave, and then allows you to simply export to a wav file.

What are the opinions of Kick 2? Do serious Trance producers actually use it or do they do things the way I did it for my song? Does anybody here use Kick 2 for Trance kicks? If not, what DO you use?

Now to the bass

Is there something like Kick 2 for bass patches. I essentially did the same thing for the bass that I did for the kick, except I layered 4 bass patches. Is there an easier way? What do you use to make your bass?

Pads, leads, plucks and stuff seem pretty simple. Most of the synths on the market seem to cater to this stuff for various EDM genres so there's no shortage of material there.

Thanks for your help.

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
10074 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:23 pm

Kick 2 is the bees knees. I couldn't even think of turning elsewhere for a kick. That said, I hear people are quite fond of D16 Punchbox but I'm set with Kick 2.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13612 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:24 pm

Mushy Mushy wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:23 pm
Kick 2 is the bees knees. I couldn't even think of turning elsewhere for a kick. That said, I hear people are quite fond of D16 Punchbox but I'm set with Kick 2.
So you use it all the time for EDM?

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
10074 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:35 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:24 pm
Mushy Mushy wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:23 pm
Kick 2 is the bees knees. I couldn't even think of turning elsewhere for a kick. That said, I hear people are quite fond of D16 Punchbox but I'm set with Kick 2.
So you use it all the time for EDM?
Well just to be clear I never make EDM but I do use it always for psytrance. It does have some great presets in there if you’re not interested in rolling your own.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

User avatar
wagtunes
KVRAF
13612 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:32 pm

Mushy Mushy wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:35 pm
wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:24 pm
Mushy Mushy wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:23 pm
Kick 2 is the bees knees. I couldn't even think of turning elsewhere for a kick. That said, I hear people are quite fond of D16 Punchbox but I'm set with Kick 2.
So you use it all the time for EDM?
Well just to be clear I never make EDM but I do use it always for psytrance. It does have some great presets in there if you’re not interested in rolling your own.
Okay, I now I'm going to get shot for this but isn't Trance just a subset of EDM? If you look at Wiki under electronic music Trance and all its sub genres are all listed under electronic. Now I know that not all electronic music is dance music but let's be honest, Trance has almost the same beat as most dance music. There are more things that make them similar than make them different. So when people talk about EDM in the broad general sense, Trance is part of that conversation.

I don't think you can escape that.

But this is where all the snobbery comes in and fans of one genre start piling on fans of another genre as being "inferior" or whatever. If you think I'm kidding, go follow some of the conversations here and other places on the Internet. It gets pretty ugly. I mean look at this very thread how many people indignantly told me "That's not Trance" as if my music wasn't good enough to even be considered under that label.

Don't get me wrong, as annoyed as I was, I'm over it now and don't even care at this point, but I'm just stating what I observe here and elsewhere.

We are very territorial over our music genres.

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wagtunes
KVRAF
13612 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:13 pm

Here it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music

In short, EDM consists of, and I'm quoting, "house, techno, trance, drum and bass, and dubstep, as well as their respective subgenres"

Agree or not, that's the general consensus. So, when I asked you if you used Kick 2 for EDM, I was referring to any of these genres. EDM itself is not a genre. It is just a very broad definition.

mladi
KVRist
287 posts since 14 Apr, 2016 from Germany

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:11 pm

"Need Help With Trance Project"

After listening to it i guess yes.. ..you really need some kind of help. :)
Image

User avatar
ATS
KVRAF
5969 posts since 21 Dec, 2002 from MD USA

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:15 pm

mladi wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:11 pm
"Need Help With Trance Project"

After listening to it i guess yes.. ..you really need some kind of help. :)

post your music
my music: http://www.alexcooperusa.com
The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls ~ Pablo Picasso

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Distorted Horizon
KVRian
1308 posts since 17 Jan, 2017

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:14 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:50 pm
what DO you use?
https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/5- ... ins-639062

These are all good. Though I don't have any experience of that 808 vsti but rest I've tested and they're all good.

Xfer Nerve is really kickass, though it's a drum machine.

Microtonic, a drum machine again but at some point widely used.

Wave alchemy evolution is insanely good, though it doesn't involve synthesis but works with samples.

Izotope Breaktweaker is also fun if your machine can handle it.


But staying in kick machines, mostly I use BazzISM and Punchbox. Though my needs are a bit different than what they are in liftup/epic/etc trance.

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Distorted Horizon
KVRian
1308 posts since 17 Jan, 2017

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:39 pm

Distorted Horizon wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:14 pm
Izotope Breaktweaker is also fun
Had to give it a spin to remember why it was fun.. Layering samples and synthesis, possible to toss 3 layers of stuff (per track) and lose yourself making kicks and snares instead of making music is the reason why I don't use it as much as those more simple ones :lol:

recursive one
KVRAF
3694 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:11 am

wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:11 pm
I'm going to give one technically correct Trance tune a shot. I may find it's more fun than I imagined it would be and maybe it even turns out to be decent musically. I'm never going to know if I don't try.
Then some suggestions:
- use a natural or harmonic minor chord progression for your main theme. You don't need modulations, stay in your main key all the time
- start with writing the main theme, then build a track around it
- use more automation: filter cutoff and/or filter envelope are the most typical targets.
- I would avoid using vocaloid, make an instumental tune.

I don't have Kick2 myself, but from what I heard from various trance producers it must be very good.
I hate incomplete sentences because they ...

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
10074 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Re: Need Help With Trance Project

Post Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:14 am

wagtunes wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:13 pm
Here it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_dance_music

In short, EDM consists of, and I'm quoting, "house, techno, trance, drum and bass, and dubstep, as well as their respective subgenres"

Agree or not, that's the general consensus. So, when I asked you if you used Kick 2 for EDM, I was referring to any of these genres. EDM itself is not a genre. It is just a very broad definition.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

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