'modes' in popular music. Lydian examples? ughhh

[HitEmTrue]

I have no idea why you would think Dreams is Lydian. It has a minor feel. I'm not going to transcribe it or listen to it extensively but so far it's 1 2 b3 4 5 b7, I haven't heard a sixth degree at all; minor pentatonic add M2.

F Lydian scale fits across the song...whether that is the mode of the song is certainly debatable.

You have it as A minor, correct? The sixth degree of Am happens frequently in the chord structure in the G chords.

No need to transcribe the song...its Fmaj7, and G (with various notes added for color added throughout the song). Rinse and repeat. Except for an A minor chord once in the middle of the song.

[jancivil]

"F Lydian scale fits across the song."

I'm not hearing it, then.

EDIT: bullshit.

sorry about that, but being told twice about the fact of the F chord bothered me some

[jancivil]

It sounded to me like it was never going to arrive at its tonic, then finally there must have been that A minor.

B still sounds to me like 2, and G as the VII chord.
Doesn't sound Lydian at all to me, I stand by my first impression albeit there being nearly no A minor makes that seem problematic.
I got real sick of it and that isn't going to change today.

[someone called simon]

Yesterday (F major):
...
It's explained in this interesting video (at 5:47):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w-c_Q0jY0Gs

This is what I don't like (or maybe am not sure about) regarding modes. Including an out-of-key note once in a while in an otherwise normal major key song doesn't make it in a mode, or mean that it goes into that mode for a few seconds. Both Beatles songs he mentions are example like that. At least thats not my understanding, though I'm happy to be corrected by those more knowledgable.

[someone called simon]

just looking at some of the video examples. Simpsons theme has come up 3 times, but as I mentioned in my first post, it has a flat 7. doesn't that rule it out? Might as well call it Mixolydian then. If a mode defined by the sharp 4 can feature a flat 7, why not vice versa?
I did see it referred as Lydian dominant. Is that a mode or a scale? I've seen references to both.

The verse of this is possibly maybe definitely lydian... then the chorus goes to the ii, minor, so that stops the Lydian-ness of it all. But, nicely, some of the harmonies feature the sharp 7 of that chord, making it sound like the new tonic.

[someone called simon]

the sitar and the Pearl Jam examples are nice

[HitEmTrue]

This is what I don't like (or maybe am not sure about) regarding modes. Including an out-of-key note once in a while in an otherwise normal major key song doesn't make it in a mode, or mean that it goes into that mode for a few seconds. Both Beatles songs he mentions are example like that. At least thats not my understanding, though I'm happy to be corrected by those more knowledgable.

A song or piece does not have to remain in the same key throughout...Bach pieces, for example, can change keys in the middle of a phrase.

So the mode can change, too.

[IncarnateX]

One does not necessarily change the overall feeling of mode due to a few colortones now and then. It is more extensive tonal twistings that destroy it in the end.

[jancivil]

just looking at some of the video examples. Simpsons theme has come up 3 times, but as I mentioned in my first post, it has a flat 7. doesn't that rule it out? Might as well call it Mixolydian then. If a mode defined by the sharp 4 can feature a flat 7, why not vice versa?
I did see it referred as Lydian dominant. Is that a mode or a scale?

If you're playing modally, it's a mode. If it's used over a V7 type of chord, say in jazz, it's not, it's a scale.

Simpson's Theme brings the b7 in in the second phrase. It also keeps moving. It has a definite Lydian feel and in the first phrase it may as well be Lydian scale. Lydian dominant is a jazz sort of name. I first saw a name for it in a little sort of booklet when I was like 17 (or ca 1973), 'overtone scale'. So named because it more or less - NB: C G E Bb D F# - gives the first 11 partials (1 3 5 7 9 11).



My first objection to saying the Fleetwood Mac example is Lydian is that there is no feeling of Lydian.
It was asserted there is an F (after I said I didn't hear any 6th; and there isn't any F in the entirety of the tune. I meant the melody, thank you Captain Obvious for providing the F chord) but there is just the F major chord (later in the chorus F^7 sez Rumours Songbook but I don't want to hear any more of it, it gave me an earworm and I'm sorry I even clicked on it at this point). It isn't centered (edit: except the melody revolving around A), I mean I'm looking for a feeling of I or i chord and it doesn't arrive; being VI and VII to my ear (and I trust my ear and my half century as a modal lead guitar player) and given the melody revolving around A, hey, what...
It's a weak example of anything modal because of these things. The guitar solo doesn't do anything like Lydian; we want B vis a vis F in some perceptual sense. I believe there is exactly one B in the melody and it suits the G chord.

The melody centers around A. The reason I said 'I'm not going to transcribe this' is that my determination of mode is MELODY. So I sang melody tones, considered it for a bit and made my determination: not Lydian.

The Bs in the melody are a sense from the G chord, VII. It does not have any sense of a #4 vis a vis F.
I have to say that for the tonal center to be F, there ought to be some centering on F in the melodic line. There is not. Sorry, that argument really doesn't make it.

I accessed Fleetwood Mac Rumours song book. Apparently the final chord is F^7 add#4 which is the first sign of B against F in the whole song.

[jancivil]

This is what I don't like (or maybe am not sure about) regarding modes. Including an out-of-key note once in a while in an otherwise normal major key song doesn't make it in a mode, or mean that it goes into that mode for a few seconds. Both Beatles songs he mentions are example like that. At least thats not my understanding, though I'm happy to be corrected by those more knowledgable.

A song or piece does not have to remain in the same key throughout...Bach pieces, for example, can change keys in the middle of a phrase.

So the mode can change, too.

Thank you again Cap'n Obvious. Your remark has naught to do with what you're replying to, note well.
In Explanation: simon's objection to <Beatles Yesterday explained in some youtube vid> was that an odd note here or there does not make a tonal song modal through itself.

[excuse me please]

I don't want to get too clever, but they never go fully Lydian in a pop song. I wonder why...

[jancivil]

Yesterday (F major):

| F | Em7 A7 | Dm |

The Lydian mode is just a suggestion, the second chord (Em7) heavily leans towards F Lydian. Although the song actually modulates from F major to D minor. However, Em7 (E G B D) lets it undecided where the modulation is going until A7 (dominant of Dm) sets in. NB the substitution of the 'natural' Em7b5 chord, (E G Bb D) makes a big difference.

It's explained in this interesting video (at 5:47):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w-c_Q0jY0Gs

You have no clue whatsoever. Neither does the idiot in the youtube example.

Em A7 FUNCTION TO D. It's ii V7 of D and this modulates temporarily to D minor.
B natural C# is 6 and 7 of melodic minor. This is VERY common knowledge.

A song that modulates key to key has nothing to do with any mode. So if it were normal D minor, no shit, ii is a half-diminished chord. There is nothing Lydian about the song in any way at all. We're going to D (minor); the melody is a perfectly normal, conventional tonal device. The B has to feel like a sharp IV melodically against F to be F Lydian. it's the ii chord of D, functional harmony. The B is part of D minor. Full stop. Functional harmony ≠ modal. Full stop.



This is an excellent example of why <tonal> as a term has a fundamental disagreement with <modal> as a term. And your post is a fine example of why one should study from some coherent model rather than trust the internet and some idiot on youtube. And of your incompetence even dealing with the basics, yet again.


edit: typo!

[jancivil]

Laughing my ass off...

[jancivil]

As it turns out, to his credit I must say, he admitted his error, to say it's D melodic minor.

thanks for playing

[IncarnateX]

A song that modulates key to key has nothing to do with any mode.

change of mode particularly.

One can simply think of modes as moods of melodies. Church scales have each their particular perceptual charateristics, which we call modes. In the erea of Gregorian chants, they were monophonic or sung in parallel fifths. Not because the composers were too lame to be more refined, but because monophony symbolized the unity of God and faith. Not surprisingly praise of God in polyphony was allowed during the renaissance along with loads of otherwise lost greek philosophy and art. These melodies were modal too. Harmony and tonality were yet a turn to come during the following centuries till this day. When you subordinate scales V-I structures, it will be mainly be chords that decide color of melodies, compared to the internal relations of tones in the scale used for the melody. Such structural coloration is what is signified in expressions like tonic, dominant and subdominant. Needless to say that you can twist any church mode too extensive to make it fit a tonal framework and thus the original mode, or mood if you like, will be lost.