If not Firefox then what?

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User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
8092 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:34 am

Karbon L. Forms wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:09 am
perfumer wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:01 am
The Internet is NOT healthy. It is a spy tool exploited by US, European and Israeli spy organizations. The REAL spies. Only later do Facebook, Google etc. come into the picture. And they are spies too, although a bit different. And then come commercial companies who want to sell you stuff you don't need, but for this puropose they need your metadata which they collect or purchase without your approval and generally treat you like a lab rat with a credit card.

And who decides what is 'information' or not? The guys who want to tell you who you are and what you should think. Ah, it's a Russian site spreading this 'misinformation'? We'll ditch it as a last result in your search. Ah, a Chinese site? Won't be listed at all.

You know, long before the so-called Russian trolls, there were the US trolls, bots, etc. including on Facebook, Twitter, etc.

The phrase 'democratic societies' gives the game away. Democratic, my ass!
Erm. OK. But when I quickly read it, I thought 'oh good, maybe less anti-vax, anti-gmo bullshit stories getting into peoples heads'.

You seem a tad paranoid.
Actually, I think perfumer is right. A new kind of censorship is in the works, disguised and justified with the words "protect democracy". The problems resides exactly in the question posted. and some others:

who decides what is 'information' or not?

who decides what is "democratic" or not?

In the end, who decides who has the right to speak or not? And by which authority?
Fernando (FMR)

User avatar
toonertik
KVRian
523 posts since 15 Feb, 2017

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:35 am

perfumer wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:21 am
!$&%^ "£$% &&*(!% W$W$T^...........
Damn Firefox...
What was this message... must be important!

chk071
KVRAF
17669 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:35 am

There's a brilliant protection from spies of any kind anyway:

Image

Karbon L. Forms
KVRian
1101 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:36 am

lol. Nothing new then. All good.
.................................
"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
.................................

perfumer
Suspended
88 posts since 4 Oct, 2018

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:47 am

The US elections, Brexit, Gilets Jaunes... very powerful people are at each others throats. Laugh all you want.

Karbon L. Forms
KVRian
1101 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:49 am

perfumer wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:47 am
The US elections, Brexit, Gilets Jaunes... very powerful people are at each others throats. Laugh all you want.
As I say. Nothing new there.
.................................
"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
.................................

perfumer
Suspended
88 posts since 4 Oct, 2018

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:18 am

I'm glad you are so well educated and in the know. Keep learning - I do it every day.

User avatar
do_androids_dream
KVRAF
2824 posts since 26 Oct, 2007 from Kent, UK

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:40 am

Karbon L. Forms wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:09 am
perfumer wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:01 am
Karbon L. Forms wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:39 am
do_androids_dream wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:20 am
Unaspected wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:07 pm
do_androids_dream wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:35 pm
Firefox is also now part of the censorship propaganda bs now too..
That is disappointing to learn. Do you have an example?
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/08/0 ... on-online/
Why is this bad?
From the link:
In short: it makes the Internet less healthy. As a result, the Internet’s ability to power democratic society suffers greatly.
The Internet is NOT healthy. It is a spy tool exploited by US, European and Israeli spy organizations. The REAL spies. Only later do Facebook, Google etc. come into the picture. And they are spies too, although a bit different. And then come commercial companies who want to sell you stuff you don't need, but for this puropose they need your metadata which they collect or purchase without your approval and generally treat you like a lab rat with a credit card.

And who decides what is 'information' or not? The guys who want to tell you who you are and what you should think. Ah, it's a Russian site spreading this 'misinformation'? We'll ditch it as a last result in your search. Ah, a Chinese site? Won't be listed at all.

You know, long before the so-called Russian trolls, there were the US trolls, bots, etc. including on Facebook, Twitter, etc.

The phrase 'democratic societies' gives the game away. Democratic, my ass!
Erm. OK. But when I quickly read it, I thought 'oh good, maybe less anti-vax, anti-gmo bullshit stories getting into peoples heads'.

You seem a tad paranoid.
If this is how you feel you will be easy to 'sell' this to. What qualifies a software company, that makes an internet browser, to decide what information is true or false? What gives them the authority? It's like saying a paper manufacturer can decide what's written on their paper. Anyone should have the right to say whatever the hell they want - it's down to the 'audience' to decide whether they should give them the time of day. On principle, I am 100% against any form of censorship - however 'softly' they try to sell it.

chk071
KVRAF
17669 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:42 am

... and the OP only asked for a browser. :lol:

User avatar
ThomasHelzle
KVRAF
5089 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:47 am

perfumer wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:47 am
The US elections, Brexit, Gilets Jaunes... very powerful people are at each others throats. Laugh all you want.
Yeah. I remember that guy who was said to be on the paranoid side of things with his website and a day after the snowden reveals suddenly became a sought after authority instead.

Not laughing here.

If I would want to keep Europe in check and not get too uppity or united, what better way than pushing the internal fringe forces to let it kill itself? Much easier and cheaper.

If I want to distract people from the real issues, what better way than having a clown become president and keeping everybody so occupied on twitter that global warming, destruction of the environment and harebrained ways into the future go unnoticed?

Aren't we a funny bunch...
Still in early Alpha but man are we proud of ourselves :party:

Cheers,

Tom
"Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there." - Rumi

ScreenDream|Thomas Helzle 8) Twitter

User avatar
ThomasHelzle
KVRAF
5089 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:52 am

chk071 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:42 am
... and the OP only asked for a browser. :lol:
How much time per day do you spend in your browser?
How many decisions per day are somehow influenced by what you search in that browser?
How much information do you get through that browser?
How much financial transactions do you make through it?
How much communications happens through it?

"Only a browser" is relative... ;-)

Turn off the internet for a week in a country and "only" becomes quite dramatic.
We just don't realise it since it's like the air we breath - it's everywhere.

Cheers,

Tom
"Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there." - Rumi

ScreenDream|Thomas Helzle 8) Twitter

perfumer
Suspended
88 posts since 4 Oct, 2018

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:56 am

Guys, I told you this is my profession. What's with the tin-foil hats and sarcasm?! If you've been living under a rock and only reading fiction and listening to pop music, it's not my fault.

Yeah, Tom, the situation is not pretty, going from bad to worse - how do I know?

Edit:

I just read this article: http://glasove.com/categories/novini/ne ... litichesko

It's in Bulgarian and very important on the whole, but what's relevant to the conversation we're having in this thread is the following paragraph:
The chairman of the GERB Parliamentary Group has informed the head of the European and Russian Affairs Directorate at the National Security Council, Fiona Hill, about the importance of the elections for the European Parliament in May 2019 on transatlantic relations. Not allowing misinformation and domination of fake news in the election campaign is crucial to the end result. An important condition for the future of transatlantic relations is the strengthening of the status of systemic parties in the European Parliament and the non-admission of populist parties to take precedence in defining the political agenda in Europe over the next 5 years, Tsvetanov said.

Karbon L. Forms
KVRian
1101 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:22 am

do_androids_dream wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:40 am
Karbon L. Forms wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:09 am
perfumer wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:01 am
Karbon L. Forms wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:39 am
do_androids_dream wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:20 am
Unaspected wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:07 pm


That is disappointing to learn. Do you have an example?
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/08/0 ... on-online/
Why is this bad?
From the link:
In short: it makes the Internet less healthy. As a result, the Internet’s ability to power democratic society suffers greatly.
The Internet is NOT healthy. It is a spy tool exploited by US, European and Israeli spy organizations. The REAL spies. Only later do Facebook, Google etc. come into the picture. And they are spies too, although a bit different. And then come commercial companies who want to sell you stuff you don't need, but for this puropose they need your metadata which they collect or purchase without your approval and generally treat you like a lab rat with a credit card.

And who decides what is 'information' or not? The guys who want to tell you who you are and what you should think. Ah, it's a Russian site spreading this 'misinformation'? We'll ditch it as a last result in your search. Ah, a Chinese site? Won't be listed at all.

You know, long before the so-called Russian trolls, there were the US trolls, bots, etc. including on Facebook, Twitter, etc.

The phrase 'democratic societies' gives the game away. Democratic, my ass!
Erm. OK. But when I quickly read it, I thought 'oh good, maybe less anti-vax, anti-gmo bullshit stories getting into peoples heads'.

You seem a tad paranoid.
If this is how you feel you will be easy to 'sell' this to. What qualifies a software company, that makes an internet browser, to decide what information is true or false? What gives them the authority? It's like saying a paper manufacturer can decide what's written on their paper. Anyone should have the right to say whatever the hell they want - it's down to the 'audience' to decide whether they should give them the time of day. On principle, I am 100% against any form of censorship - however 'softly' they try to sell it.
It's their browser. They can do what the f**k they want with it. So don't use it. What gives you the right to dictate what a company does? Go make your own internet if you don't like it.

"it's down to the 'audience' to decide whether they should give them the time of day". Very noble. Thing is, most of that 'audience' are idiots.

But keep fighting the good fight dudes. It's human nature to enjoy feeling 'special' and being party to 'the truth'.

I can't help. I'm of no use to anyone. I'm so blown away by how complex this world is, and what little I know, that I don't give a flying f**k anymore.

So, I'll thank you in advance for saving us plebs from 'them'. :tu:
.................................
"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
.................................

User avatar
Unaspected
KVRist
477 posts since 4 May, 2012

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:37 am

do_androids_dream wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:40 am
If this is how you feel you will be easy to 'sell' this to. What qualifies a software company, that makes an internet browser, to decide what information is true or false? What gives them the authority? It's like saying a paper manufacturer can decide what's written on their paper. Anyone should have the right to say whatever the hell they want - it's down to the 'audience' to decide whether they should give them the time of day. On principle, I am 100% against any form of censorship - however 'softly' they try to sell it.
Very well said. I now see much more relevance in this thread and will be checking out more browsers. Slightly irritating as I've only cared whether my website works on Firefox up to this point. I definitely don't want to support Chrome so it's on to slightly more obscure solutions. This does seem to be the path that those who care about basic internet freedoms are being forced to take by big tech companies.

Karbon L. Forms wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:22 am
But keep fighting the good fight dudes. It's human nature to enjoy feeling 'special' and being party to 'the truth'.
It's not about perceived truth - that's the problem being discussed. How can you trust anyone else to provide you with a singular narrative that is in your 'best interest'? This is about having information available so that people can draw their own conclusions. It's about choice and variety. Nothing to do with how we feel unless we include terms such as 'restricted' and 'coddled'.

Karbon L. Forms
KVRian
1101 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland

Re: If not Firefox then what?

Post Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:18 am

I don't trust anyone else. Everyone is either a self-serving idiot or a self-serving scumbag. I've looked into human nature and all those behaviours we evolved, so much that I don't even trust myself. Everyone has their bubble, formed to give them ease in a harsh reality. Everyone lies, particularly to themselves. Just look at religion or any of its substitutes. Or Americans with their 'freedom'. So go on and enjoy your warm-fuzzy 'choice' which makes you feel you have some agency in the world.
.................................
"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
.................................

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