Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Official support for: bitwig.com
robbmonn
KVRist
41 posts since 1 Jul, 2018

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:22 am

antic604 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:39 pm
mholloway wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:39 pm
He doesn't seem to even be aware of the Audio Receiver's existence. I think everything he says "can't be done" can, in fact, be done. Hopefully he reads this, and learns!
Worse, I don't think he's even aware of input & output dropdowns for every track, because that is how those things are done in Live. There's no (native, at least) Audio Receiver equivalent.
I am well aware of these, thanks.

sth
KVRist
83 posts since 20 May, 2018

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:00 am

While an Effect Track does not have the Send knobs to *also* push its audio into another Effect Track, you *can* route Effect Tracks directly into each other with the input/output dropdowns on the Effect Track. Just last night I setup two Effect Tracks, one a Delay and the other a Reverb, where the Delay outputs directly to the Reverb track, and they have other Tracks sending to them through the normal Send knobs.

Perhaps an Audio Receiver can be used for sending an Effect Track to multiple Effect/Audio Tracks.

Are you aware of Track Grouping? You completely missed this when describing sub-mixes and it's the obvious and most ideal feature for it. Each Group can contain any type of Track, including more Groups, and by default their input/output is configured perfectly for sub-mixing. At the top-left of the track panel is a dropdown to "dive into" any Group, such that the Group Track itself becomes the "Master" and you're only looking at that level of Group and downwards. The easiest way to think of this is that there's a default "Master" Group at the top-level, and you can add more for sub-mixes or organization. My template includes Groups for Leads, Pads, Basses, Drums, etc., and they usually have groups inside of them as well for the more complex instruments. I don't do any manual rerouting of tracks to each other or Effect Tracks to make a sub-mix.

So, I think that just leaves your question about that plugin you have, and the concern that in general feedback looping requires a workaround.

Hez
KVRian
510 posts since 10 Dec, 2013

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:44 pm

xbitz wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:58 am
^^^ working (only the feedbacking isn't allowed) even works from the group tracks (send outs can be used serial/parallel etc.) so if have some common fx plugin it should be put to the group tracks after the receivers
Ah great just tested and you're right! I swear I tested this back in the day and it wasn't allowed but maybe my memory fails me.

robbmonn
KVRist
41 posts since 1 Jul, 2018

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:50 pm

Thanks again to the community. For your answers.

User avatar
gesslr
KVRist
492 posts since 8 Apr, 2014 from USA

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:24 am

It’s a great community! But if I may make one suggestion: Rather than open with an attack, why not just ask the question first? I realize everyone has their own style, and I’m not trying to police yours, but it might be a more effective approach in the future. Just a thought.

Now I’m going to go try a few of the things you were talking about. I have not opened up Augustus Loop in years...! 🙂
------------
MacPro 5,1 | 64gb | OSX 10.12.6 | Studio One 4| Waveform 9 | Logic Pro X | BWS 2.4.3 | CubasePro 10 |

http://www.soundwaremedia.com
http://www.facebook.com/geo.napier3

robbmonn
KVRist
41 posts since 1 Jul, 2018

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:27 pm

I get it, but if you remove the rhetoric and lose grasp on the product from my original post it still points out the following, which is important for (at least my) workflow:

Bitwig has an anti feedback policy that cannot be turned off that disallows:
* sending a send to itself
* sending audio from an output of a track to another track and then routing that audio back into a side chain on the original track (for something like round trip routing of an fx send/return from and back to an effect or instrument)

The community indicated that there are workarounds to these issues, but that they involve at best using plugs instead of the mixer and the worst routing audio out and back into the DAW.

The anti-feedback issues are not documented to a degree that they are obvious and in the interface can manifest in unintuitive ways. Fwiw the ability to generate feedback in DAW mixers is also more or less never discussed and there is not a general awareness that this is a good thing for some tasks.

I'm glad for the clarity that the dialog here has provided, but the core issue/feature is still a real thing. As with all things it is a matter of preference and practice for everyone and I respect that but, being old and having spent a decade of my life experimenting with real mixers and cables I am frustrated by a DAW that limits its mixer in this way.

I've actually implemented my workaround in VCV Rack bridged into Bitwig, which just released their Host module, which allows the hosting of VSTs. This has been working perfectly for me and I'm thrilled with a level of flexibility that is even greater than the Ableton mixer.

As for Augustus Loop, I encourage it's use this way:

put it in a feedback loop, 100% feeding back. Feedback in the plugin must be 0%, plugin should be 100% wet. Put this on a send. Now you can put a tape emulator in the feedback loop, which if you're me it really lovely. Careful with the gain, you will have to get it just right. Keep in mind that the "clear loop" button in Augustus takes a second (or longer if you have a 10min loop) as it deallocates the ram. Use the "tape" button to allow yourself to see the waveform. Try assigning a very slow and shallow (very very shallow) LFO to pitch (you will have to manually adjust the offset to get it to center around C) for lovely warbles. I use Augustus to record long loops (song-length) generally and I usually use three of them with the tap record control assigned to a midi pedal (a little tricky to set up) and I ride the send level (audio -> looper level), the loop level and the regen/feedback (loop->itself) all by hand. This is very close to having three frippertronics rigs at once, with variable (and long) tape loops. With even a gentle tape saturator (I use Ghz Wowcontrol or Softube Tape) in the feedback loop and everything set up so the feedback very slowly decays you can get something quite deep. I also run the loops totally async from clock, but that's my preference. I used to do this with a Mackie 1604 and real reel to reels and cassette loops (with defeated erase heads) long ago, this ITB setup is really much nicer. Whereas it would take an hour to get things running and balanced before now I can save state and begin playing right away.

Happy holidays.
I think calling my original post an "attack" is a bit of a stretch, just as I would consider labelling some of the results as insulting a stretch. Thanks again.

VCV Rack setup attached: Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
pdxindy
KVRAF
14150 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:51 pm

robbmonn wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:27 pm
I'm glad for the clarity that the dialog here has provided, but the core issue/feature is still a real thing. As with all things it is a matter of preference and practice for everyone and I respect that but, being old and having spent a decade of my life experimenting with real mixers and cables I am frustrated by a DAW that limits its mixer in this way.
If I recall correctly, Bitwig has stated they have no intention of changing that.

Yokai
KVRist
116 posts since 7 Nov, 2017

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:56 pm

And.... you realize that the "Note Receiver" and "Audio Receiver" devices already there in Bitwig are VIRTUAL patch cables that perform exactly like in the VCV diagram you posted just above? The only limitation is that Bitwig prevents feedback loops. In all other respects you can create nearly any type of crazy routing and signal injection of both audio and MIDI with just those two devices alone. I barely even touch the old-school track-level routing controls any more. I let tracks roll up to their groups and then onto the master bus, and nearly any other routing I need is done mostly with those two devices.

User avatar
gesslr
KVRist
492 posts since 8 Apr, 2014 from USA

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:11 pm

robbmonn wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:27 pm
I get it, but if you remove the rhetoric and lose grasp on the product from my original post it still points out the following, which is important for (at least my) workflow:

Bitwig has an anti feedback policy that cannot be turned off that disallows:
* sending a send to itself
* sending audio from an output of a track to another track and then routing that audio back into a side chain on the original track (for something like round trip routing of an fx send/return from and back to an effect or instrument)

The community indicated that there are workarounds to these issues, but that they involve at best using plugs instead of the mixer and the worst routing audio out and back into the DAW.

The anti-feedback issues are not documented to a degree that they are obvious and in the interface can manifest in unintuitive ways. Fwiw the ability to generate feedback in DAW mixers is also more or less never discussed and there is not a general awareness that this is a good thing for some tasks.

I'm glad for the clarity that the dialog here has provided, but the core issue/feature is still a real thing. As with all things it is a matter of preference and practice for everyone and I respect that but, being old and having spent a decade of my life experimenting with real mixers and cables I am frustrated by a DAW that limits its mixer in this way.

I've actually implemented my workaround in VCV Rack bridged into Bitwig, which just released their Host module, which allows the hosting of VSTs. This has been working perfectly for me and I'm thrilled with a level of flexibility that is even greater than the Ableton mixer.

As for Augustus Loop, I encourage it's use this way:

put it in a feedback loop, 100% feeding back. Feedback in the plugin must be 0%, plugin should be 100% wet. Put this on a send. Now you can put a tape emulator in the feedback loop, which if you're me it really lovely. Careful with the gain, you will have to get it just right. Keep in mind that the "clear loop" button in Augustus takes a second (or longer if you have a 10min loop) as it deallocates the ram. Use the "tape" button to allow yourself to see the waveform. Try assigning a very slow and shallow (very very shallow) LFO to pitch (you will have to manually adjust the offset to get it to center around C) for lovely warbles. I use Augustus to record long loops (song-length) generally and I usually use three of them with the tap record control assigned to a midi pedal (a little tricky to set up) and I ride the send level (audio -> looper level), the loop level and the regen/feedback (loop->itself) all by hand. This is very close to having three frippertronics rigs at once, with variable (and long) tape loops. With even a gentle tape saturator (I use Ghz Wowcontrol or Softube Tape) in the feedback loop and everything set up so the feedback very slowly decays you can get something quite deep. I also run the loops totally async from clock, but that's my preference. I used to do this with a Mackie 1604 and real reel to reels and cassette loops (with defeated erase heads) long ago, this ITB setup is really much nicer. Whereas it would take an hour to get things running and balanced before now I can save state and begin playing right away.

Happy holidays.
I think calling my original post an "attack" is a bit of a stretch, just as I would consider labelling some of the results as insulting a stretch. Thanks again.

VCV Rack setup attached: Image
Thank you for sharing this! :tu:
------------
MacPro 5,1 | 64gb | OSX 10.12.6 | Studio One 4| Waveform 9 | Logic Pro X | BWS 2.4.3 | CubasePro 10 |

http://www.soundwaremedia.com
http://www.facebook.com/geo.napier3

SLiC
KVRAF
2947 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:02 am

@robbmon

I think your thread title is a little ‘severe’ (‘does Bitwig allow feedback loops’ would be more accurate, simply stating Bitwig is ‘severely limited’ in a Bitwig forum was likely to run people up the wrong way)

Better to Ask the question rather than make the statement, you obviously have a lot of knowledge and this is a helpful forum with some very creative people. Bitwig certainly isn’t perfect, but it is getting there faster with 3 major updates per year, so get on board and make your suggestions to the Bitwig Team, they do listen!

PS - regarding VCV Host it is truest amazing, I am getting better results and more reliability with some VSTs in this host than in major DAWs, whoever is coding that thing is a genius!
i7 Win 10 + Surface, BWS, StudioOne 4, X32 Desk. Rubicon R8s, DM12, P8, Virus TI, Syst1m, 500hp Eurorack, Elektron A4, RYTM, OT, Heat, Digitone, MPC Live, OP-Z, Mother+DFAM, Drums, Guitars, Basses and Amps

User avatar
Tj Shredder
KVRAF
1532 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:41 am

Preventing feedback has two possible motivations. A technical one and a security one...
The technical is the requirement to introduce at least one signal vector of delay. That would be solvable I think. The same mechanism which detects the loop can switch that delay on as well...
The security one is to prevent unexperienced users from blowing their speakers and ears. This could be solved by popping up a warning as soon you create one or as soon you open a project with feedbacks in it...
I would as well prefer to have them not blocked, but I can work around if needed. The need isn‘t as high as it seems to me. I can create feedback loops within Reaktor or within Bidule or within the new free Modulair, plenty of options. I do not insist on it. I would not call that limitation severe at all...
The limitation of max 4 inputs for a plug-in is much more in the area of being severe, but the devs are willing to change that at least...

User avatar
ThomasHelzle
KVRAF
5085 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin

Re: Bitwig audio routing know-how limitations are ... severe.

Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:17 am

IIRC a conversation with Claes, not allowing feedback has also to do with solving the scene graph for PDC. As soon as feedback comes into play, things get even more nasty there. But my memory could be wrong, it's been a while.
I personally see feedback in a DAW as a special effect, not something you normally want.
Since there are other ways to achieve it for the special cases that do need it, I would actually think the devs have a point in not allowing it.

As for the original thread title: Hyperbole does nothing to help online platforms stay helpful and friendly, so like others, I'd highly suggest keeping things at a level like SLiC suggests.
We had a high supply of members here in the past who were unable to have a normal conversation about things they didn't know and so everybody is a bit sensitive when people start shouting false information or unclear statements.

Cheers,

Tom
"Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there." - Rumi

ScreenDream|Thomas Helzle 8) Twitter

Return to “Bitwig”