Do I “need” analog synths?

[Jace-BeOS]

Ultimately, I want to make music and I want the process to be more dynamic. I’m not having fun now. Analog looks like it might be fun... but also frustrating

I'm not sure the solution to your problem is more gear.

Nor am I. That’s why I made this thread. Do you have any suggestions? Is there some way to avoid zipper noise when controlling synths with MIDI controllers?

It so happens that i'm researching that same topic recently else where. Thread here: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=210642

Oh good, it’s not just me. I will check out that thread, thanks.

I'm assuming here that you mean stepy or stair steps sound when controlling some thing like pitch or cutoff, etc.

Yes.

Not the ALIASING zipper sounds you hear while modulating oscillator pitch, these are completely different as aliasing will happen even when modulating with completely smooth hi-res LFO or so. 14-bit MIDI will not solve these zipper sounds because its not the reason it happens to begin with. The synth has to handle that internally.

I’ve noticed that, too. That explains that, thanks.

[Jace-BeOS]

It so happens that i'm researching that same topic recently else where. Thread here: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=210642

I read that page. I’m not a member there and don’t want to make yet another account so I will comment here.

As mentioned over at MuffWiggler, the Behringer X-Touch is almost a Mackie control surface. I have one of these, but I cannot find any info about using 14-bit MIDI on it. There’s a thread somewhere on their forum where someone asked the question and no one answered it (then he said “hey, I’m a customer, it would be nice to get an answer” and someone told him that the forum was just customer to customer; how helpful).

Previously, I was using an M-Audio ProjectMix, which is basically the same thing, but with an audio interface. Had to abandon it because M-Audio and Avid abandoned driver development (though I could still use it in Snow Leopard if I end up keeping a Snow Leopard volume in active use, I might set it up somewhere again; but it’s really a lot of table top space). I also never saw any explanation on how to use 14-bit MIDI with it.

I get the impression that the setup is a PITA, even if we can get it to do what we want. That’s also something I want to avoid. Sigh. But I’d like to try it if anyone has some clear directions on how to set it up with plugins.

[acYm]

good point. we just upload the stuff in the kore patches thread, it's not sorted. I thought about that, there's more templates now than there used to be, some kind of list would be useful. then again there's, what, 20 of us left in there, heh.
I'm curious to see how many downloads the just-posted Sylenth1 gets over the next year, it's a flawless template, like, wow.

kore2 is fully 64-bit, and from what I hear, the software shouldn't give you any trouble on macOS, only the controller driver is iffy to get up and running. there are no bugs, only three caveats: no vst sidechaining inside kore cause there's no access to extra inputs, no plugin latency reporting to the host, no vst3.

when I reconnected mine in '15, I thought, great, this will let me really shrink down my studio and focus on a few essentials. I was sure that nothing modern would work well in this old shipwreck. as you can see in the kore patches thread, this plan backfired on me pretty hard. back to square 1 of never knowing what to pick

by the way, the others checking this out, it's for you as well. I thought about this subject for a long ass time, I could write an essay on it. there are three options: Kore, the lesser controllers, and getting a good mouse, I recommend the steelseries rival500.

[EnGee]

n/m

[BertKoor]

Regarding zipper noise, analog synths will suffer from that as well if they just follow the course CC commands you send to it.

What's needed to fix that is for the synth to implement "parameter smoothing".

[pekbro]

Im thinking pretty seriously about getting one of these, A Makenoise Cartesian System.



I've thought about a more traditional synth, but tbh that doesn't interest me much. I've got
plenty of virtual synths and am not overly interested in achieving the best sound beyond that.
What interests me is the synthesis and experimental sound.

When thinking about Eurocrack, the Cartesisan had some modules in it already that I would
want to buy anyway, and would save me a lot of trouble trying to design my own system. It's fully
contained and expandable if I choose to go farther, and interesting enough on its own to keep
me busy for a long time otherwise.

It's unusual, deep and interesting, for me that where the inspiration is at. As for the
cost, its pretty close to what I was going to spend on a new guitar anyway.

https://youtu.be/oCstERiRjHE

[Jace-BeOS]

Regarding zipper noise, analog synths will suffer from that as well if they just follow the course CC commands you send to it.

What's needed to fix that is for the synth to implement "parameter smoothing".

Yeah, but if I am just playing an analog synth with the controls right there, there's no need to send anything to it via MIDI (other than note commands). Most analog synths don't even support MIDI for anything other than note on/off and maybe pitch bend.

Right?

[whyterabbyt]

Regarding zipper noise, analog synths will suffer from that as well if they just follow the course CC commands you send to it.

What's needed to fix that is for the synth to implement "parameter smoothing".

Yeah, but if I am just playing an analog synth with the controls right there, there's no need to send anything to it via MIDI (other than note commands). Most analog synths don't even support MIDI for anything other than note on/off and maybe pitch bend.

Right?

if you're willing to eschew control over anything else than note on/off and maybe pitch bend, wouldnt applying that to your existing stuff make your problem moot?

[Tj Shredder]

we can smooth the zippering, it's well, imperceptible then

How? To the best of my knowledge, smoothing has to be a function/feature of a product. You can’t just add it to existing synths.

When smoothing is done, as it is on the Access Virus TI, it introduces latency and there’s still no fine control. It simply avoids zipper noise.

I am dealing with Midi since it started back in 1984. Even back then 14-bit controllers had been there. We just got MPE standardised and I love the most expressive Midi controller on earth, my LinnStrument.
I know zipper noise. Its always the fault of the receiving device. I am creating my own tools in Max/MSP since more than 25 years and whenever I came across it, I could smooth it without perceivable latency easily. Sometimes you might need more resolution, but even with level faders, applied with my own curve, I have been happy most of the time with 7-bit, and were not you have to insist on 14-bit. As simple as that...
I do not look back to my hardware synths times (be it analog or digital - my gosh, my DX 7 had a velocity resolution of 7 steps...)

Hardware can be inspireing on a very different level. It has less to do with technology like Midi or protocols, but more with the human touch. Controllers are all around me, most of them talk just plain Midi and I certainly get more expression out of them (without any zipper noise) as with a wall of analog gear, but I know wonderful musicians where it is just the other way round...
In the end its the music which counts. Even a cello player has to fight some technical problems to get to the point of just playing...

Zipper noise is a solvable problem and not an unavoidable limitation...

[Distorted Horizon]

Do you NEED is a question only you can answer.

Personally I don't NEED an analog synth, but I still bought one and I'm going to buy more. I do use vst's too for stuff that analog can't necessarily do (ie certain psy bass from Sylenth, WT fun from Serum, ambient scapes with either Reason Granular or Loom Classic). Or maybe they can but since I have virtual tools for those, why not use them.

Anyways, I like the workflow of the analog.. Make a patch, tweak n record it live and then process the saved audio. Also forces me to continue a track since if I can save a patch with song, I tend to have another idea/inspiration and forget the song I was already making

[nix808]

yeah, I meant the synth dev can smooth it-
a 1-pole lp works fine with something like .005/1 freq
This is fine for controller knobs- there isn't really any latency

I'm with you though- more res would be good

I have a simple analog synth, a Cheetah MS6
I have fun when I switch it on- mmm, it's sounds aren't that complex though

I use an analog controller, a hex guitar pickup which I turn to MIDI-
this is so darn fun-it's what I do all day

I think u have the right idea to look at controllers-
there is Seaboard Rise, Linnstrument etc.?

[Jace-BeOS]

Regarding zipper noise, analog synths will suffer from that as well if they just follow the course CC commands you send to it.

What's needed to fix that is for the synth to implement "parameter smoothing".

Yeah, but if I am just playing an analog synth with the controls right there, there's no need to send anything to it via MIDI (other than note commands). Most analog synths don't even support MIDI for anything other than note on/off and maybe pitch bend.

Right?

if you're willing to eschew control over anything else than note on/off and maybe pitch bend, wouldnt applying that to your existing stuff make your problem moot?

I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not willing to eschew control. I'm willing to eschew MIDI control, so long as there's an analog control on the hardware in question. The only hardware I have with front panel controls that don't cause stepping is the Access Virus TI (it uses smoothing internally, but this creates some latency).

[Jace-BeOS]

we can smooth the zippering, it's well, imperceptible then

How? To the best of my knowledge, smoothing has to be a function/feature of a product. You can’t just add it to existing synths.

When smoothing is done, as it is on the Access Virus TI, it introduces latency and there’s still no fine control. It simply avoids zipper noise.

I am dealing with Midi since it started back in 1984. Even back then 14-bit controllers had been there. We just got MPE standardised and I love the most expressive Midi controller on earth, my LinnStrument.
I know zipper noise. Its always the fault of the receiving device. I am creating my own tools in Max/MSP since more than 25 years and whenever I came across it, I could smooth it without perceivable latency easily. Sometimes you might need more resolution, but even with level faders, applied with my own curve, I have been happy most of the time with 7-bit, and were not you have to insist on 14-bit. As simple as that...
I do not look back to my hardware synths times (be it analog or digital - my gosh, my DX 7 had a velocity resolution of 7 steps...)

Hardware can be inspireing on a very different level. It has less to do with technology like Midi or protocols, but more with the human touch. Controllers are all around me, most of them talk just plain Midi and I certainly get more expression out of them (without any zipper noise) as with a wall of analog gear, but I know wonderful musicians where it is just the other way round...
In the end its the music which counts. Even a cello player has to fight some technical problems to get to the point of just playing...

Zipper noise is a solvable problem and not an unavoidable limitation...

Okay, so how are you solving it? I do not have Max/MSP and don't do that kind of programming, even if I had it.

[Jace-BeOS]

I'm playing with Kore 2 and Kore 1 Controller on my Snow Leopard system. Changing "KoreController Sens" on a knob in the GUI lets me use finer increments for value changes. This is nice, though it requires changing the default setting every time you load a patch, which is a PITA. How do you edit the default in the templates?

The other downside is that the finer the sensitivity you give it, the farther you have to turn the knob for any meaningful change. Too high a setting and you have to turn too much to get any progress. Too low a setting and it's easier to progress, but you're more likely to hear the stepping. Seems the knobs are not high resolution enough to speed through ALL values in truly high resolution (it's really just giving you MORE steps, not higher resolution), but this is at least some kind of progress (I feel like I've seen this before and had forgotten about it). Maybe a balance can be struck there. Until now, I've not been able to get a smooth filter sweep on the MS-20 plugin.

However: This is still a LOT of mousing and menu diving for such a simple task, and voltage-controlled filters generally don't step OR force you to turn the knob a million times. Right??

[whyterabbyt]

I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not willing to eschew control. I'm willing to eschew MIDI control, so long as there's an analog control on the hardware in question. The only hardware I have with front panel controls that don't cause stepping is the Access Virus TI (it uses smoothing internally, but this creates some latency).

Sorry, I was trying to work out what you're actually looking for, in terms of usage. You mentioned the Korg SQ-1 and a ribbon controller as potential partners to an analog synth, but then Kore2 as a controller for softsynths, and the disparity between my perceived intentions-of-use between the first controller set and the second means I dont actually understand what you're trying to achieve. At first glance you seemed to have phrased requirements in terms of technical spec, not application...

In other words; what are you wanting to do? If you're looking for realtime CV sequencing (SQ-1) and a precise pitchbend controller (Eowave etc) then are those front-panel analog controls for realtime performance? (implying working with purely live recording in single takes) Or for more granularity in controls for presets?

FWIW, parameter smoothing isnt a latency factor in softsynths,(technically it shouldnt even be one in digital hardware), and VST parameter automation values are 32-bit. I'd expect you're probably more likely to find zippering at the synth end in older (80s era for example) digitally-controlled analog synths than softsynths.