'modes' in popular music. Lydian examples? ughhh

[jancivil]

where is the edit button

[jancivil]

Which part of it is wrong?

Why not reflect for a second before trying to salvage your statement?

Your instant reply was "I said only white keys" which does nothing. I said that the D must be the 'tonic' for the white keys.
Doubling down on white keys is meaningless here. We can absolutely start a C major scale passage on any of 7 members of that set and remain in C major.

I suppose this needs more? C major has, as its tonic, C. When a D E F G A B C occurs and the tonic is C, guess what? We're in C major. Something has to change to effect the tonic being D or one of the other centers for the 6 other modes we can abstract from 'all white keys' to be that mode.

NB: it's probably the better idea to have read a thread and get a sense of where you are and of what's transpired.

The mode has character: eg., Lydian has a character tone, the aug. 4 as pertains to tonic. B per F Lydian; E# per B Lydian which I didn't get for some reason.

All white keys, to be F Lydian MUST have F as a knowable center. (Insofar as we can know a thing.)
Otherwise the B may be the leading tone of C major; the ^7 of C Ionian; the character tone of D Dorian, ie., its 6th degree differentiating it from D minor's default or from D Aeolian. et cetera...

[jancivil]

Another easy way to describe:
WWHWWWH
WHWWWHW
... etc.
Yeah, that's already been stated the first way you tried to.

I don't know why you think the thread needs this Introductory material. I'd wager you didn't read most of it, if you read any of it.

I pointed out a basic problem, it could mislead to say you need to start "all white keys" on D and this amounts to D Dorian.
I indicated why, and it seems clear enough, yet you asked what's wrong with it like that's unclear. So there it is again.
You could have those intervals in a row and regardless of the beginning note in a passage of music, this is a true and useful statement: <tonic = C> ≠ <D Dorian> or any of the other modes.

If you don't get it, maybe you're not the person to be teaching it.

[sslyutov]

just nevermind

Thank you

[jancivil]

...

[sslyutov]

Which part of it is wrong?

Basically, ALL of it.

C Major and A minor are also ALL white keys. How do you differentiate each mode from the others? Or are all of them the same thing? And how do you differentiate C Major from A minor?

I can perfectly play a "scale" from E to E and be firmly in C Major. The same can be said from G to G.

By root (I though it is obvious)

[jancivil]

Root refers to a chord. A scale is not said to have a "root". That's Intro to Theory material here.

If C is the tonic for D E F G A B C it is C major. Not clear that you have this. We encountered a problem with you asserting what has to happen is a differing "first note"; I said that this is not sufficient as it's unclear what "first note" means in that sentence. Then you reiterated the intervals which would occur in the set of tones we get from 'white keys' starting on D with an etc following for the rest of the supposed modes.

So, it's still unclear you understand. I edited a post to be more generous, personally. And you're thanking me? For what. Do not enjoy any mistaken impression that may have produced in you that I have any mistake, or am shutting up like you've sussed the matter. Seriously.
I only changed it to be nice.

You may need to read me. You may need to read the thread. You may need to read somebody who has this. It's unclear that you do, and By root doesn't promote the impression you do.

[sslyutov]

This is so much fun to have a conversation with you
LOL

[jancivil]

Which part of it is wrong?

Basically, ALL of it.

C Major and A minor are also ALL white keys. How do you differentiate each mode from the others? Or are all of them the same thing? And how do you differentiate C Major from A minor?

I can perfectly play a "scale" from E to E and be firmly in C Major. The same can be said from G to G.

By root (I though it is obvious)

No, the only thing obvious in this series of time-wasting exchanges is that you have stated that the change to a mode other than the one on C from all white keys is effected by a change of 'first note'.

D Dorian is not C major starting on D, per se. I have stated more than once the real basis for the change, but you seem to need to salvage the original statement, in preference to acknowledging anything said.

This isn't even a conversation. I don't want anyone reading to retain the impression all that has to happen is a change of first note as though sufficient. It would have to be more than you doubling and tripling down on the statement, some kind of real exchange to be a conversation.

[jancivil]

So you would be in a conversation with me, or whomever, if you could acknowledge you take our point.

To wit:
And how do you differentiate C Major from A minor? put to you by 'fmr'.

By root. is your answer.

So I don't know if you have now confused the question: yes, one may differentiate the chord C major from the chord A minor by root.
However, it would seem clear that the topic is modes {and now modes vis a vis scales}, and the question is present here only through your statement - without question insufficient - that the modes, supposedly from white keys, and mode 1 supposed as "C major" occur by a change of "first note".

It isn't a helpful statement.

Wait, I want this to be as clear, as simple as I can manage, for all.



There is one scale passage in the example. Its first note is F. The root of the harmony supporting it is F. F G A Bb C D E.
So this is F Mixolydian?






Nope, it's still in Bb major.

[jancivil]

If that is unclear, you want to ask questions; such as "Why is it still in Bb, would you say?".

[sslyutov]

I do not have questions ( may be you have )
I do not want to continue aggressive conversation.
White keys is just a case mentioned as an example of visualization of patterns which correspond modes.
I think understanding modes is pretty simple.

You guys are correct about root.

[jancivil]

I do not have questions ( may be you have )

I do not want to continue aggressive conversation.

Well, "may be you have"/sic seems combative and I think passive aggressive is nonetheless aggressive.

White keys is just a case mentioned as an example of visualization of patterns which correspond modes.

So you're reiterating what you've said twice already.

I asked you if you understand what I wrote. That you would now do "maybe you have (a question)", sure doesn't change the impression I have, inescapable from where I sit. If you read anything except for your own statements you would have a clue as to what is understood or not in the thread before entering it. It did not need you to clarify what a mode is.

If you wanted to get a sense of the room here, you could look around you. I would see who I'm talking to as a new member, first of all; you would be talking with people, not at them.
More pertinently to this particular back-and-forth, you could have responded to the question rather than what you did.

I think understanding modes is pretty simple.

You seem to want your initial offering in this thread to seem perfect. Sorry, no. It's incomplete, which I think has been demonstrated.

[jancivil]

I said "If that is unclear." The "if" there indicates I don't know if it is, or not. And that is down to you. e
So it's a little irritating to me that you don't get that the reader (a wider readership than you see here) may need better than you care (or were able?) to do.


It could be you don't speak English and are running everything through a translation application, for all I know.
I don't blame anyone for that, I sure cannot speak Russian, but if you want a full - and fair - exchange, IME, you want to have read and be understood to have read what was said to you.

[fmr]

White keys is just a case mentioned as an example of visualization of patterns which correspond modes.
I think understanding modes is pretty simple.

No it isn't. That's the mistake you (and countless others) always do. Modes are even more complicated to understand than tonalities (which, BTW, are also modes - in fact, "just" two modes, Major and minor, transposed to start in each key). It's simpler to understand tonality coming from modes than the other way around. Right from start because in tonality, although you have a different dimension to take account of (harmony), you only have two modes (Major and minor) and what you learn for one Major tonality is common to all others. In modes, each mode is a completely different universe, and you have eight of them. Each has its own rules, its own behavior and its own peculiarities. What you learn for the Mode of D doesn't suit any of the others.

Major and minor descend directly from the mode of D (minor) and from the mode of F and G (Major) through the "musica ficta" performance habits. NOT from Jonian (which, as I said, was never used) and Aeolian (which, as I said, was a secondary mode - the name is plagal - from the mode of D, or Dorian as you know it).

Each mode can start on ANY note. They can be (and were many times) transposed, just like Major and minor are nowadays. They simply were not notated as transposed, but always the same way (notation in those times was rather primitive, not at all like the system we have today). That's why most people (erroneously) think that modes were always sung with the same notes.

As Jancivil wrote several times, it's not enough to play the white keys starting in a different note to have "a mode". You will most likely only have a scale played in whatever tonality you are in but over a different chord. In the end, you remain tonal, and you have no resemblance of the mode you "think" you are, whatsoever.

Modes were not used as "scales" (you will not see a single "scale" played in modal music), and you will never establish a mode by simply playing the "scale". The way to state the mode is through its polar notes (which vary from mode to mode, BTW), and characteristic interval sequences (since you didn't have the harmony to establish it).