Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
glokraw
KVRAF
6638 posts since 6 Oct, 2004

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:10 pm

Stefken wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:51 pm
commodities like electricity, food etc we take for granted.
I don't take such things for granted. I know the history which
made them possible, and respect the people who keep them possible,
and am prepared for significant breaks in their availability.

I must admit that 'selfies' never once entered my stream of thought
regarding someone promoting a business creating audio software.
I'm pretty old. Selfies self-posted, which I found disgusting,
would influence my purchases from such selves.
Cheers

glokraw
KVRAF
6638 posts since 6 Oct, 2004

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:23 pm

Stefken wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:51 pm
The people that provide it and do the labour are mainly working in the shadows while the selfpromoting managers take the glory.
Having worked around both management and those 'in the shadows'
of our local electric utility, I can say the management
preferred the shadows, and those in the field leaned more to 'high-fiving'
and 'popping-a-top'.
Both were mainly concerned with maintaining and restoring power
without anyone getting hurt. I doubt glory ever enters their minds. :dog:

dmbaer
KVRian
1119 posts since 11 Nov, 2009 from Northern CA

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:33 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:35 am
A good friend of mine who passed away last year use to say "You can't fix stupid."

The older I get, the more I realize how true that is.
Many years ago I was riding a bus in Oakland CA and an old gentleman was sitting next to me (these days, I would be the one described as an "old gentleman, but that's beside the point). We witnessed something supremely moronic happening on the street, and my seatmate turned to me and said in a rather thick European accent "Caesar said 'against stupidity even the Gauls are defenseless'". Or that's what I heard. I later learned that what he actually said was "even the Gods are defenseless". Turns out, the correct quote is something like "Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain".

Somehow, I find my first interpretation more delightful.

Stefken
KVRian
764 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:40 pm

glokraw wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:23 pm
Stefken wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:51 pm
The people that provide it and do the labour are mainly working in the shadows while the selfpromoting managers take the glory.
Having worked around both management and those 'in the shadows'
of our local electric utility, I can say the management
preferred the shadows, and those in the field leaned more to 'high-fiving'
and 'popping-a-top'.
Both were mainly concerned with maintaining and restoring power
without anyone getting hurt. I doubt glory ever enters their minds. :dog:
Well, glory was obviously a strong word but you get what i mean.
And maybe you are retired right now?
Because the managers I work with do NOT prefer the shadows nor do the many millenials I have worked with. They are only to eager to be in the center of attention. They are called the ego generation for a reason. And that's all this selfpromotion is. Me me me.

I'll end my rant here. Back to the filters.
Last edited by Stefken on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vertion
KVRist
493 posts since 29 Oct, 2016

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 pm

Promotion is about showing the have to the have nots, but the problem is that everyone says they have the best coffee in town.

With exception to the truly ethical, most people try to get as much as they can while giving as little as they can, and people see this and come to expect from each other as the unspoken norm. It's typically about who has the most in this world. The haves.

When someone has something that is perceived as really beneficial ti the have not, the have not will wager how much they are will to give for it. Unfortunately, deception has become a standard practice across almost every major institution on the planet in one form or another, intended to mislead perceived value, or trade result. The more this happens, the less and less people are willing to give and the markets wither away.

It's as if carnavores ate all the herbavores around, they'd have no choice but to devour each other, destroying themselves as energy reduces to zero. Can't have the bad without the Good.

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bmanic
KVRAF
8198 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:00 pm

Stefken wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:09 pm
wagtunes wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:40 pm
I'm old and there's been self promotion since I can remember.
I'm not that old.
But selfies at a disaster zone? The Trumps, Erdogans etc that wasn't there in the 80s. Life was a lot simpler yet better.
What you just said is like the most cliché thing one can possibly say when aging. It's basically the "get off my lawn!!!" caricature.

You have old people complaining exactly the way you just did dating back thousands of years (yes even the ancient greek philosophers complained about "that damn youth and their stupid ways.. things were better in my youth!".)

Oh and I remember the 80's very well thank you.. I'd take todays world and todays youth in an instant over the stupid little git I and my friends were back then. :hihi:
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

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bmanic
KVRAF
8198 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:02 pm

Vertion wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 pm
Promotion is about showing the have to the have nots, but the problem is that everyone says they have the best coffee in town.

With exception to the truly ethical, most people try to get as much as they can while giving as little as they can, and people see this and come to expect from each other as the unspoken norm. It's typically about who has the most in this world. The haves.

When someone has something that is perceived as really beneficial ti the have not, the have not will wager how much they are will to give for it. Unfortunately, deception has become a standard practice across almost every major institution on the planet in one form or another, intended to mislead perceived value, or trade result. The more this happens, the less and less people are willing to give and the markets wither away.

It's as if carnavores ate all the herbavores around, they'd have no choice but to devour each other, destroying themselves as energy reduces to zero. Can't have the bad without the Good.
.. eh?

wat.

:pray:
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

Cinebient
KVRAF
3890 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:07 pm


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mellotronaut
KVRAF
9834 posts since 2 Jan, 2005 from somewhere in the woods

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:22 pm

Vertion wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 pm
Promotion is about showing the have to the have nots, but the problem is that everyone says they have the best coffee in town.

With exception to the truly ethical, most people try to get as much as they can while giving as little as they can, and people see this and come to expect from each other as the unspoken norm. It's typically about who has the most in this world. The haves.

When someone has something that is perceived as really beneficial ti the have not, the have not will wager how much they are will to give for it. Unfortunately, deception has become a standard practice across almost every major institution on the planet in one form or another, intended to mislead perceived value, or trade result. The more this happens, the less and less people are willing to give and the markets wither away.

It's as if carnavores ate all the herbavores around, they'd have no choice but to devour each other, destroying themselves as energy reduces to zero. Can't have the bad without the Good.
Image
no, that's not all. there's something missing:
Image
but what?
Image
LOVE
"It dreamed itself along"

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Hink
Rad Grandad
27650 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:25 pm

ok, enough with political posts please or take that part of the discussion to hpc

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SJ_Digriz
KVRAF
5669 posts since 5 Jul, 2001 from either Northern Idaho or Southern Canada, still trying to figure out which

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:42 pm

I think several things have been mentioned, but based on my experience with modular DIY and the new understanding it gave me to the various flavors of vintage analog synths I've played and owned over the last 50 years or so, I think there are 4 major things that work in conjunction. None are THE thing.

1) Oscillators
2) Filters
3) Op Amps (or whatever gain/mix system is in place including the output)
4) EG implementation and interaction with all the above

The sum of those makes the sound IMO. Changing how any one works can dramatically change the sound. I actually think #3 is grossly under discussed when it comes to some synth architectures and their perceived glassiness or harshness or smoothness etc.. Simply changing a few components of a VCA makes HUGE difference in tone, EQ response curve, clipping sensitivity etc..
The trick is to realize there is no spoon. That's when you'll know you have been truly swindled.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7376 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:44 pm

Stefken wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:09 pm
I'm not that old.
But selfies at a disaster zone? The Trumps, Erdogans etc that wasn't there in the 80s. Life was a lot simpler yet better.
What about Ceaușescu, Yeltsin, Jimmy Carter? Nothing ever really changes that much.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Elektron Analog Keys, Waldorf Pulse 2 MicroMonsta, IK Uno.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7376 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:46 pm

ramseysounds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:31 am
A filter is a filter is a filter. It's just an EQ, no?
All it does is cuts off frequency below a set point.
Sure there are different types, but they all do the same thing essentially.
The obvious difference is resonance. EQ doesn't have it, a filter does and it's that part of it that determines it's character more than anything.
ramseysounds wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:07 am
They both affect the frequency spectrum at a determined set point. So essentially, filters and EQ do the same thing, in different ways. Dress it up as you want, but the fundamental is the same for both.
They may use similar techniques to achieve their goal but they are used in fundamentally different ways. When you EQ a sound, you are looking for transparency - you don't want anyone to notice that you have applied EQ so you tend to be subtle about it and 99% of the time your settings will be static (no modulation or automation). OTOH, when you apply a filter to a sound, you (often) want to fundamentally change it's character and let listeners hear what the filter is doing. You also almost always apply some form of modulation to it - envelope, LFO, etc. - and use resonance to make those changes very audible.

So yes, at heart they are similar but each has features that make it suitable for a very different task, much like a motorcycle engine compared to a truck engine. But if you wanted to apply an envelope to the gain control of an EQ, the result would be similar to a filter with resonance at zero, except the EQ probably wouldn't have the range of values to be completely closed at any point and, therefore, might be less effective.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Elektron Analog Keys, Waldorf Pulse 2 MicroMonsta, IK Uno.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7376 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:47 pm

recursive one wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:19 am
Thanks, that makes sense. I had an idea at the back of my mind for a long time "what if I had these awesome Repro or DIva filters in my favourite wavetable/FM synths", I see that this would not necessarily translate to better sounds.
Maybe not at the extremes but I am confident that you would have a far more flexible synth, capable of a broader range of sonic possibilities overall. The best thing I ever did in SynthEdit was to stick a V/A filter on my phase mod synths. It meant I could use the phase mod for what it did best and the filter on a simpler osc output when that worked better. It's nice to have options, especially when they don't interfere with workflow.
Urs wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:14 am
Nope, true unison (voice level, not oscillator level) is awesome with characterful filters. It's just also not quite resource-friendly.
I think Synapse Audio would disagree. Both DUNE and The Legend manage to pull it off magnificently, albeit in the case of the latter, the modelled filter is awful (by design).
whyterabbyt wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:31 am
of course, if i'd actually pointed out why he was wrong for each point you'd probably be whinging about pedantry, wouldnt you.
Well, it is your stock in trade, after all, isn't it?
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10), Yamaha AG06, Orion 64 bit, Roli Seaboard Rise 25, Elektron Analog Keys, Waldorf Pulse 2 MicroMonsta, IK Uno.

chk071
KVRAF
18086 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Are filters what make the sound of a synth stand out from the crowd?

Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:52 pm

BONES wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:47 pm
I think Synapse Audio would disagree. Both DUNE and The Legend manage to pull it off magnificently, albeit in the case of the latter, the modelled filter is awful (by design).
:smack:

Moog ladder filter FTW. :P

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